Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Who's In? calling all good pro-Europeans...
The Prime Minister will shortly announce the date of his promised referendum on our continued membership of the European Union. I am a member of the European Movement but unsure if there's a local In group for Haringey? If there isn't one, I would be happy to help set one up on a cross-party basis. Haringey should - and must - deliver a big "yes" vote. Let me know, guys.
Tags for Forum Posts: European, Haringey, Referendum
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Justin Hinchcliffe on
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Political canvassing? Seriously? Over to you, Hugh.
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Permalink Reply by HoL Site Admin on
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It's party political canvassing that's controlled on HoL, not the exchange of political ideas (unless of course those ideas are likely to be offensive to other members on the grounds of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, disability etc).
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Permalink Reply by maggie on
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I would like to hear arguments for and against; yet again Mostly Charmless is trying to close down a discussion.
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Mostly Harmless, I've answered your question and now let's leave this discussion open to those who want to discuss the issue involved. If you really want to debate our house rules, then there may be some limited appetite to do so on another thread which you are free to open if it's important for you, but not here. So your subsequent comments have been removed.
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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on
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Justin, of course I would prefer for the U.K. to remain a member of the E.U. You wouldn't expect me to say otherwise. After being able to live myself over thirty years in another EU country.
When I came, the EU didn't exist and it wasn't until Thatcher signed the Single Europe Act in 1986, that I was able, from 1992, to have all the rights that my neighbours also enjoy. I also recall how much fuss was made in the U.K. back in 1992 about the Single Europe Act.
The EU has long been made the scapegoat for all the U.K.'s ills, not only in the U.K., it happens all over and that is generally due to lazy national politicians who were always looking for ways to pass the buck. But also from the print media, mostly foreign owned in the U.K., which basically hasn't moved on it's insular positions for generations, even though the country and it's economic position and standing in the world has changed significantly.
The keyword for the 21st century has got to be 'co-operation and not confrontation'. That can only be acheived, in my opinion, by pooled sovereignty. In that, no country looses, but actually gains, by sharing the power to decide over others too. It is ludicrous to aspire to gaining back more sovereignty, when at the same time, the most important aspect of British life, i.e. security, is only acheived by having pooled sovereignty in NATO. How can it good to be in NATO, but not the EU?
The EU is a community built on values, the Germans have a word for that: 'Wertegemeinschaft'. Many in the tory party have never liked the social chapter, which regulates the minimums on how much people should earn, how many days holiday a year, hours to be worked etc., etc., These would all be lost if the U.K. left the EU. And I suspect that within a few years, the Americanisation of the British labour market would be acheived. i.e. no sick pay, no benefits, no annual holidays.
I seriously think the Prime Minister was playing with fire when he agreed to sop the right wing of his party and the media, by agreeing a referendum. The EU was created after WW2 to ensure that never again would there be war in (at that time) in Western Europe. At the time Britain and it's politicians still haughtily thought that the U.K. was a cut above the rest. But once the countries of the Empire rightly took over their own affairs, it became clear that the U.K. couldn't/still can't isolate itself. It has always been tory governments/prime ministers (MacMillan, Heath, Thatcher) that have deepened Britian's relationship with Europe
Another serious problem is, that the U.K. has always played the part of the bully boy on the sidelines of European politics. Never seriously engaging, but continually loud mouthing about what it will and won't do, wants and doesn't want. Never trying to make something out of it's membership. The skill of diplomacy, once a British success story, seems to have been lost.
Twice in the 20th Century, the British have been saved from disaster by the intervention of the United States, indeed in WW2, by the Soviet Union too. In both World Wars, Britain managed to end up on the winning side. A myth was put about in 1945, that Britain won the war, no doubt in order to ease the pain of post-war austerity. No, Britain was on the winning side. Without armaments from the U.S.A. and Soviet cannon fodder, the Brits would never have been able to defeat the n+zis. In fact, the situation was similar to that of the French, although it was only the Channel that eventually stopped an invasion of the British Isles. This has led to the belief that there is a 'special relationship' between the U.S.A. and U.K. Let me tell you, the Americans say all the same things to the Germans, use Germany as it's European military base and certainly don't want the U.K. to brexit.
So it all comes down to what the Brits want (once again) from Europe. A common market situation won't happen. A relationship with Europe like Norway or Switzerland (both Shengen countries) won't either. I'm not optimistic and sometimes I wish that the U.K. would just go. Certainly Cameron needs to show that he has made a success of something, anything - please.
A last reminder. The EU was also created to bind Germany into Europe, to bind it into the western world rather than see it ally to the Soviet Union. British political weight - it's seat on the UN Security council counterbalances Germany's overwhelming economic and strategic power. Would the U.K. brexit, Germany's influence in the world would surge, making the U.K. even less important in the Europe of tomorrow.
This week at the World Economic Forum, it was announced that Germany has been voted the world's best country. Britain really shouldn't be leaving the European Stage at this moment.
And on a personal point of view, my sister and husband (or any British Tourists, expats and all the rest) won't have any health insurance on their annual three month winter sojourn in Spain.
Stay in Britain and actually make something out of your membership !
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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on
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Completely agree and endorse the spirit of your argument Stephen, thanks for writing it down. Think we owe the EU an apology for our past behaviour. Want to see a more open and collaborative approach.
Let's keep demonstrating why we're suitable partners and bring more of what we're good at to the table.
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Would agree-- to an extent. They also owe us various apologies (the ban on British beef when cattle were scientifically cleared of BSE springs to mind). Every family has their ups and downs. This is one is no different. Hope we can go forward and learn from past mistakes.
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Agree with most of what you say - a first! Funnily enough, when I wrote this post, your views were not at the forefront of my mind. LOL, as they say. Pity you are in Germany. Do you have a postal vote? Encourage your friends and family here to come out and vote - and support the In camp. Justin (Hinge. Or am I Bracket?)
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Justin please don't make the mistake of misunderstanding what I write, when I play devil's advocate on Clive's postings.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on
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I think the wrong question is being asked. While good things have come out of being in the EU, for me a boils down to a single issue, do you want the UK to remain a sovereign state or do you want it to be part of a European federation. For all the concessions and opt outs (which madden me, you're either in or not in), closer federal ties seem inevitable. If that what you want at least vote for that with your eyes open.
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Even if the U.K. left the EU it wouldn't be sovereign. If for instance Putin attacked Latvia, Spain or Turkey, the U.K. would be at war.
The U.K. hasn't been sovereign since 1949. It learnt that lesson by nearly losing to the nazis.
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An excellent reason for not being in NATO
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