Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
1.5 million bill for cleaning up after Haringey's fly tippers
The Tottenham Journal reports that it cost the borough 1.5. MILLION to clean up after the borough's fly tippers. They compare this with Camden and Islington -
In comparison, Islington had just 2,634 reports of flytipping, while Camden had 10,950, costing the boroughs £101,706 and £229,852 respectively to sort out.
Anecdotally, tales of being told by neighbours and fly tippers that its "all right" when they fly tip because the "council will clear it up" demonstrate that there is a gap in people's understanding here as they seem to (want) to believe that this behaviour comes without a cost to the community.
£1.5 million is a lot of money to spend so the questions that spring to mind are how can people in this borough be taught to see the financial cost to the community of their fly tipping behaviour? Why is it worse here than in Camden and Islington - have they done anything different from which we can learn? Or are there circumstances peculiar to the borough that need a specific solution?
As ever when I see this kind of figure I have to ask WHY? What is driving the mind set that tells itself "it's all right, the council will clear it up" and how to we change that mind set for good?
Tags for Forum Posts: fly tipping
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Justin Guest on
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I have said this in the past Liz, until the cost of enforcement are charged (through fines) and passed on in full the council will always have under resourced teams policing this kind of behaviour. A fine of £50, or £150 is not going to do it, factor in how much it cost to identify and prosecute individuals, and make it hurt!!!
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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That's a thought. I wonder what the enforcement regime is in Islington and Camden.
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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Liz asked: "Are you suggesting that Islington and Camden have the same amount of rubbish but it doesn't get reported and cleared up?"
My hypothesis, - open to being disproved of course - is that this may be part of the problem. I'm assuming the news story is based on figures from the Department of the Environment "Flycapture" Database or something similar.
I confess I haven't the time to look this up. So I may be out-of-date and very wrong. But when I did look at the figures a couple of years ago it was hard not to draw the inference that other boroughs were "gaming" the stats. For example adjacent boroughs with strongly similar social mix sent in wildly different returns.
Partly this may be about definitions. If the figures reported are still based on the same absurdly wide definitions of "fly-tipping" this could include anything from a single bag; to a small pile; to what most people would undoubtedly agree was a real fly-tip.
Having said that, there does seem to be a Haringey problem. Or several problems. As increasing numbers of people have written about, photographed; and tried to persuade Haringey Head Honchos and Veolia.
Whatever claims Claire Kober makes about our clean streets - which may or may not have some statistical basis - it's still the case that large numbers of Haringey residents have a different experience and perception of the streets when they step outside their homes. Or when they make a journey to many other parts of Haringey.
There clearly is a "culture" of dump-it-in-the-road. Or tuck the rubbish behind a handy bin, or a tree, postbox; or down an alley; or in the corner of the park. Or anywhere and everywhere.
If our Council keeps cutting enforcement staff, this won't get any better. Although I'm a little cynical because, by contrast, there always seems spare cash to spend on things we don't need. Such as witchhunts on Trade Unionists; lawyers in the Supreme Court defending indefensible council tax policies. Or for deals for developers; a subsidy to a starchitect; and to overpay day-rate-tax-avoiding-consultants and interns.
But simplifying the causes of dumped rubbish and litter problems, and reducing them to a single measure figure for "flytipping" - is to shut our eyes, ears and minds to the complexities of what Haringey must tackle.
Unfortunately, the Government too is wedded to simple figures; simpler targets; and Janet-&-John explanations and prescriptions.
More positively, there are signs of change. Haringey now has an app which lets people report litter and dumping more easily and quickly. (Though I still find it unreliable and harder to use than FixMyStreet.) Many more people have joined the ranks of the citizen photographers - they've had enough of dirty streets and are using their phones to say so. The Community Volunteer Scheme - disgracefully allowed to wither away - was relaunched under a new name. (I hope it's working.)
And people are increasingly using social media to challenge and embarrass senior staff and politicians and contractors who don't deliver on their promises.
Perhaps crucially, what I hoped would happen has now occurred. Residents have realised that two key features of social media are persistence (because of cheap accessible data storage); and retrieval (via free fast search engines). Especially elected politicians who believe in nothing very much beyond their own political careers will now have to contend with a record of their failures following them around the country for many years. Standing as a Parliamentary candidate for Ruritania on Sea? Anyone can download oodles of photos and stories from when they were the Dear Leader of mucky old Freedonia.
One reason nearly all my photos are Creative Commons.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on
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As a bit of a disclaimer, I work for Camden so could be accused of having a rosier tinted view of what they do around rubbish dumping.
Firstly, I don't do a job that has anything to do with waste but I'm quite clear, as are all of my colleagues, that if I see stuff like this when I'm out and about in the borough, that it's my job to report it and sort it out.
Secondly, Camden enforcement officers have a dual role, they also work to educate. They visit new businesses and let them know how the waste contact works and the consequences of not playing by the rules. They also visit people when they can trace the identity of dumpers. This part of the work is seen as just as important as getting rid of the dumped rubbish.
I have no idea if this is the regime followed by Haringey but it seems to work in Camden.
Thirdly, I simply do no see the amount of dumping in my working day that I see every day here in Haringey. Whether that's a consequence of points one and two I have no idea.
I don't think that deprevation and transient populations are the whole story. Camden has a massive private rented sector. Most people live in flats rather than houses have have little or no outside space to store waste. Camden also has extremes of wealth and povertly. For Highgate and Tottenham here read Hampstead and SomersTown there.
In other words, I just don't know why.
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Permalink Reply by Abi on
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This makes a lot of sense based on what I've seen with my own eyes (and also from the small fact of having lived in some of the less 'posh' bits of Islington where I didn't notice any such problems) and my guess is that Haringey is spending an absolutely inordinate amount on reactive solutions that give the impression of making a difference. I am making an educated guess that these may ultimately be a lot more costly than putting some preventative measures in place.
The thing I've noticed is that they are actually quite good at clearing up problems when you report them. The only time I've reported an issue and it's gone ignored for days or weeks have turned out to be cases where the responsibility lay with another body, usually TfL.
Does this mean they are pouring massive resources into this approach, perhaps because it makes those of us likely to complain feel that something is being done about a much bigger underlying issue?
I just don't buy the over-reporting or 'definitions' theory here - while I concede that there is a huge margin for error here, and that in theory it's quite possible to be out by millions because one borough uses a different terminology to the next, I am simply more inclined to trust my own eyes (and nose) on this issue.
Sadly, as Liz says this doesn't only push people away from Haringey, it prevents people from even coming. Last week I spoke to two friends who had been looking to rent in the wider NE London area, and both told me (without knowing exactly where I lived) that they had been searching longer than they needed to because they were avoiding properties on the Haringey side of a border because of the amount of rubbish on the streets. You couldn't make this stuff up.
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Permalink Reply by Liz on
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I agree Michael. I spent 9 years working in Camden near the estates at Kentish Town, Prince of Wales Road, Queen's Crescent and Gospel Oak. I walked around that area a lot on my way to and from work including through estates and also on the main high streets of Chalk Farm and Camden High Street. These are areas of high deprivation and dense living and yet I really don't recall the levels of fly tipping and abuse of the waste disposal system (e.g. bags out at the wrong hours etc) that you see on a daily basis in East Haringey.
I honestly don't think that its because Haringey has *better* reporting systems or that other boroughs don't clear up so well. There's more at work here than simply skewed data. Markb also makes a good point- why is it so much more expensive to clean up a fly tip here than figures provided from other boroughs show it is there? Curiouser and curiouser...
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Liz, do you know where Cllr Gail Engert's figures come from? The Journal article doesn't say.
I may be wrong and perhaps this is something really new and different, and not the pointless patronising Party knockabout stuff we get every year. Claims that we're among the best or worst in London. Engert:"Oh yes it is!" Kober:"Oh no it isn't!" Engert:"Look behind you!"
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----- Original Message -----Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:39 PMSubject: Figures on amount and Cost of Fly-tippingHi Gail,I saw you quoted in the article in the online Tottenham Journal about fly-tipping. There's a discussion thread in Harringay Online (HoL) website you may have seen.Can you please post on HoL with links to the source of your data so we can all see on what basis the various claims are made about numbers, costs etc.I'm not disputing your figures. But, as you know, I like a few crunchy plain facts to go with the usual dollop of tangy opinions.Thanks,Alan
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Permalink Reply by markb on
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Why is it so expensive in Haringey ? The volume doesn't explain it. If anything at scale it should be lower per fly tip.
Cost per fly tip:
Haringey £48
camden £20.9
Islington £38.6At 85 incident a day, or, about 3-4 per hour, it's easily possible to hire fulltime staff, say an overinflated £40K/year per staff member after overheads. Two guys on a shift, two shifts a day. So that's 4FTE. Add two more to cover weekends, overtime etc. So 6FTE, £240K for the staff. Let's buy two ford transit tipper vans for £50K and £10K in petrol and maintenance. A nice round £300K .Let's add £100K for callcentre and back office support staff. Heck, let's double it, so we're at £500K a year.
What's the extra million for?
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Can I suggest, MarkB that you ask Haringey as well as posting on HoL?
A substantive factual reply to your questions would inform and stimulate further thought and debate. But such a reply is unlikely to arrive unless you send in the questions.
And they are well worth asking. Even in a council steeped in a toxic stew of PR and "spin" there are still many honest people working for Haringey. Even a few councillors who haven't absorbed the culture of obfuscation, secrecy and fear.
My wild speculation. The £1.5 million figure may have a ridiculously simple explanation. It could be a rough estimate of the cost of having vehicles and staff driving round all day picking up and fetching back the dumped rubbish.
When Veolia first arrived they told us about another London Borough which had two garbage trucks permanently out on crud collection from streets, alleys, etc. The Veolia managers said they would not let this happen, as the cost was enormous. They planned an education programme which substantially cut the cost of doing the same thing in Haringey.
I've called this Haringey's "Third System". (The dumping not the education programme.) The First System is collection from homes and businesses. The Second is "bring" sites where residents can take waste - the Reuse & Recycling Centres in particular. The Third System is: "No one will be watching us".
So please ask rather than speculate further.
Who do you ask? Well, start with Cllr Stuart McNamara the "cabinet" councillor for the Environment. He's one of the honest ones. (Though he has an absurdly wide brief.) Copy to Lyn Garner the Director of Place & Sustainability or whatever absurd title she now has. You may not get a personal reply as I doubt Ms Garner sees clean streets as anything to do with the faux "regeneration" they focus on. ("We heart developers.") Although of course efficient waste collection and clean streets are basic requirements.
stuart.mcnamara@haringey.gov.uk ; lyn.garner@haringey.gov.uk
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Permalink Reply by Albert Ross on
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Why the f**k arent people being fined or arrested? Yes it is about education but why are we paying £1.5 million of scarce council tax cleaning up after these people? I live on Gladstone Avenue in Noel Park, right by the big primary school and there are items, furniture food mess whatever dumped there ALMOST EVERY DAY right in front of the school and all around the area. Kids could get hurt, they could get ill, it's dangerous and disgusting. Why they wont put up posters and flyer people's houses? This is a crime. A crime that affects the quality of life of every person in the borough. I just dont understand why the council wont prosecute people? What are the police doing?
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