Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Women's safety
Hello all - I'm new to this site and think it's fantastic such a thing exists.
Really interested to read all your discussions, and wondered how other women who live in the area feel when they're out alone here? I have a massive bug-bear about living in this area (and it's not something I've experienced elsewhere): the disgusting attitude of many (young) men towards women. Apparently it's seen as appropriate to leer at any passing women, make obscene comments, or gross 'kissing' gestures (this latter one happened to me TWICE last Friday on Green Lanes, with one guy actually getting close to my face to try it whilst walking past me). The most shocking incident was a young guy on Green Lanes who greeted me with 'Alright, bitch' whilst passing me on a crossing!
Now, I don't dress 'suggestively' - it's winter for God's sake and I had about ten layers of clothes and a huge coat on! This seems to be a horrible ingrained attitude among many men, and seems prevalent among the Green Lanes menfolk to the point that I avoid walking down there at any time of day on my own. What do other women think? I carry a rape alarm at all times, but I fail to see the funny side of such behaviour: some friends tell me to simply 'ignore it', but at times the feeling is one of such intimidation that it's difficult to dismiss so easily. I tend to be a person who has to answer back when I'm insulted, but it seems like whatever tack you take - ignoring it or firing something back - has no effect. If we take a relaxed attitude towards it, what kind of message does that send out about what can be 'done' to women? Is there any hope for dissuading this kind of atrocious behaviour, and if so what could the approach be? Interested to hear other women's views and experiences.
Really interested to read all your discussions, and wondered how other women who live in the area feel when they're out alone here? I have a massive bug-bear about living in this area (and it's not something I've experienced elsewhere): the disgusting attitude of many (young) men towards women. Apparently it's seen as appropriate to leer at any passing women, make obscene comments, or gross 'kissing' gestures (this latter one happened to me TWICE last Friday on Green Lanes, with one guy actually getting close to my face to try it whilst walking past me). The most shocking incident was a young guy on Green Lanes who greeted me with 'Alright, bitch' whilst passing me on a crossing!
Now, I don't dress 'suggestively' - it's winter for God's sake and I had about ten layers of clothes and a huge coat on! This seems to be a horrible ingrained attitude among many men, and seems prevalent among the Green Lanes menfolk to the point that I avoid walking down there at any time of day on my own. What do other women think? I carry a rape alarm at all times, but I fail to see the funny side of such behaviour: some friends tell me to simply 'ignore it', but at times the feeling is one of such intimidation that it's difficult to dismiss so easily. I tend to be a person who has to answer back when I'm insulted, but it seems like whatever tack you take - ignoring it or firing something back - has no effect. If we take a relaxed attitude towards it, what kind of message does that send out about what can be 'done' to women? Is there any hope for dissuading this kind of atrocious behaviour, and if so what could the approach be? Interested to hear other women's views and experiences.
Tags for Forum Posts: Wightman Road, personal safety, rape, women
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Alison P on
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Hi Jen, and welcome.
You're not along on this - there have been a few other posts about it over the last year or so (though afraid I couldn't find any of them). I must confess that it isn't something I really notice - I suspect I'm older than you, more often out and about with a toddler in tow, and not out very much at all in the evening! Personally I tend to the ignore it school of thought, with the odd insult thrown in when necessary.
It really upsets me to think you are put off walking down Green Lanes, even in the daytime, by this - that's so far removed from my experience around here. The two previous places I lived (both more affluent than here) I found far more intimidating to move around in at night than here - but in both cases it was to do with there being too few people around than too many.
What do others think/do?
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Permalink Reply by Jemma on
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Hi there, I've had the exact opposite experience, I've lived just off green lanes for 5 years now and never get anything more than the odd leer when I walk down the high street. The first 3 years of living here I worked in old street and at least once a week would come home a little worse for wear and late at night without incident. I've never felt this is the safest of neighbourhoods but I've always felt the presence of the local men on the high road kept away the groups of youths which are more intimidating to me. I do know that there is a lot of street crime around the west green road end though. Sorry to hear of your experience that sounds thoroughly horrid.
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Ps I don't think you should ever react to them, if they are mad enough to call a stranger a bitch in the street then god knows what they could do!
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Permalink Reply by Kit on
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That's how I feel about Harringay too - the fact that the shops are always open and busy makes me feel more, not less, safe. There will always be the odd neanderthal out there, regardless of how we dress or where/when we are out and about. Ways to deal with neanderthals: walk confident, avoid eye contact and move away quickly and purposefully if someone annoys you or looks like they might. If the neanderthal persists, appeal to other bypassers/bus driver/shop keeper for help.
It might be worth taking one of the local self-defence classes too, Jen - I did and found it a real confidence boost.
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Permalink Reply by ElleCarumba on
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Hi Jen
Yes, it does happen to me fairly regularly. It doesn't matter if you are bundled up in ten layers or not (not that it excuses it anyway- you should be free to wear whatever you like)
I generally ignore it although I too feel that it means that they get away with it. On a few occasions when it has been more than just a leer or a comment, then I have been very forceful and angry with them and they've backed away. On one occasion, a guy got right in my face and made a rather crude offer and on another, a guy tried to put his arm round me.
When I shouted at them, they both looked very surprised - I think most people just ignore them.
It doesn't make me feel unsafe, just angry. Green Lanes is so busy with lots of people, most of whom are decent, that I don't feel unsafe but I do think it is absolutely wrong that they feel that it is an appropriate way to treat a woman. It's pretty shocking that even in 2010, there are still men out there that treat women in such a way.
usually I think of a smart retort about ten minutes later when the moment has gone. Perhaps anyone who has some smart lines could share them so I could have them stored up in advance.
The Safer Neighbourhoods Team were canvassing for opinions on ward priorities (you should be able to find the thread with the form on it on this website) and I did put the problems with leery guys as one of my major complaints for the area. Maybe you could fill it in too and send it to the SNT so they can get a better overview of the situation.
Also the SNT were running some free personal safety classes for women which you might be interested in. Again, there are details somewhere on this site.
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Permalink Reply by Pat Cadigan on
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Re: smart retorts, a friend of mine used to answer with a yawn and 'Please prove your masculinity some other way', which I thought was a good one but frankly probably lost on the kind of men whose mentality makes them think it's a good idea to be bothering strangers in the street!
I would really discourage any woman from doing this--some louts would regard it as an invitation.
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Ive noticed it aimed at young women and its really unpleasant, its so insulting to see young women reduced to objects. I'm of an age that I'm now 'invisible', so when I see it happening I purposefully face the man and block his eyeline, I then make it quite clear by making faces what I think of him. I don't know if it does any good or if they even know why I'm doing it but it makes me feel better. However when it used to happen to me a long time ago I have been known to kick the perpetrator firmly up the arse.
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"lost generations" of "young Turkish and Albanian single men"????
Sorry, Barbara, but in my experience, the sex pests on our streets come from all backgrounds, ages and walks of life.
And include affluent white Brits.
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But is there concrete evidence that the men in question are foreign, not UK-born? I'm guessing not. Growing up in Welsh Wales meant running the gauntlet of leery, lurky young men - all of them white and British, not an Albanian or Turk among them.
Maybe the cat-calling is down to boredom and poverty and low self-esteem. I don't think it's about being an immigrant.
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I've had the experiences! And I am hugely pissed off every time it happens - to any woman. There was a guy who lived at the top of my street who'd hiss 'sexy-sexy-sexy' at me every time we passed in the street. It went on until he disappeared from the area. A couple of times, he did it in front of his wife. It was vile, and made me feel a) furious and b) grubby. But FYI, he was neither Turkish nor Albanian. And why tar whole ethnic groups with the same brush?
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Hello Jen,
I really feel for you, I have this experience quite a lot on Green Lanes and at the bottom of my road (Pemberton) and absolutely hate it. It really upsets me and I don't shake it off easily - it sometimes takes me a good few days to even stop fuming/fretting about it. If it happens on Green Lanes I don't feel unsafe (I generally do feel safe round here) just furious and whilst I have no clever comebacks I tend to look at the guy in disdain and burst out with something like "Yeah right!!", and then like ElleCarumba think of what I wish I had done/said 10 minutes later.
On my road it is a bit different though, there are fewer people around and there's often a group of guys at the bottom, just a house or two up from the back of the bakery, and if I'm walking up there on my own I feel pretty helpless when they make those kissing noises or crude gestures. Plus then I cringe all the way up the road feeling like they're watching my back. I guess I'm not scared so much as angry and humiliated, I don't really know how to deal with it. Once some guys in a car drove right up to the pavement where I was walking and made some pretty horrific suggestions and for some reason my response was to bang my fist down on the roof of their car... really hurt my fist and didn't bother them, they drove off still shouting obscenities and threats about what they were going to do. Like you, I'm in ten layers and a massive coat... makes me kinda nervous about summer! Self-defence classes sound good, I doubt I'd ever need to use what I learnt but I think my biggest problem with it is feeling so helpless, so anything that makes me feel a bit more empowered would be a good thing.
I like Maggie's response!
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Permalink Reply by HoL Site Admin on
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Re: self defence classes.
In the Area Assembly on Tuesday, SNT Harringay announced there will be classes taking place again over the next couple of months.
We will post details of the classes on the site as soon as we get them.
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