Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Really, really scary. This has to stop.
This morning, at around 2:30 am we were woken up by what sounded like someone throwing bins in to a skip. It came from the already troublesome HMO across the road.
We got up and had a look. Scary stuff! A man was going berserk across the street, throwing that house's rubbish bin through the open front door, then going mental at the poor door itself, hammering it into the wall, breaking every bit of glass in it in the process. He took some short breaks, running into the road, looking manically around, seemingly for other doors to thrash, before running back to pusue his attack on the already beaten up door. We ended up dialling 999, as it was really scary, and we were worried we were next, or that some poor sod was going to walk up the road and end up being attacked. The police came withinh 5 minutes and took the man away.
This is the final straw in what's already been a nuisance for all of the 6 + years I have been here. It's making me frightened to be in my own house, scared to come home after dark, and the lack of sleep is affecting my work performance. What can be done? The council, who puts these people in there, dont seemt to want to get involved. Ideas very welcome, it's either get rid of that house, or I will have to move, I can't take it anymore.
Why are we not protected against this? Why is it always the poeple who are doing nothing wrong who has to suffer? Why am I being driven out of my own home?
We got up and had a look. Scary stuff! A man was going berserk across the street, throwing that house's rubbish bin through the open front door, then going mental at the poor door itself, hammering it into the wall, breaking every bit of glass in it in the process. He took some short breaks, running into the road, looking manically around, seemingly for other doors to thrash, before running back to pusue his attack on the already beaten up door. We ended up dialling 999, as it was really scary, and we were worried we were next, or that some poor sod was going to walk up the road and end up being attacked. The police came withinh 5 minutes and took the man away.
This is the final straw in what's already been a nuisance for all of the 6 + years I have been here. It's making me frightened to be in my own house, scared to come home after dark, and the lack of sleep is affecting my work performance. What can be done? The council, who puts these people in there, dont seemt to want to get involved. Ideas very welcome, it's either get rid of that house, or I will have to move, I can't take it anymore.
Why are we not protected against this? Why is it always the poeple who are doing nothing wrong who has to suffer? Why am I being driven out of my own home?
Tags for Forum Posts: bins, casework, hmos, neighbours, noise, noisy neighbours
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ruth on
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There was an artilce (front page) in last weeks Advertiser on this issue with another woman who has been driven out of her home for same reason. It would be good to bring some national press coverage to this issue also radio. I am sure there would be interest in this and its a matter of calling around.
Shame Haringey into acting more firmly with the landlords. You would think this council would like to keep out of the papers after the Baby P tragedy but still they seem to have things the wrong way round.
Ruth
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dear Anette, just wanted to say how sorry I am for you in this awful situation, being driven out of your own home. I wish the council would get real and get tough to stop this sort of thing happening. The law protects the wrong people it seems. I hope things calm down so you can get some sleep.
Ruth
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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Permalink Reply by rahman on
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I feel bad for you, but realistically,
1. 'these people' have to live somewhere - the Council cant lock them up if they're not criminals.
2. where are the Council supposed to put them? should they just move the problem on or give the tenant warnings before taking possession action as they are presumably doing now?
3. normal landlord-tenant law applies and the Council must apply the law which is there to protect everybody. there arent exceptional rules for homeless people.
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Not saying they are criminals but the overcrowded conditions surely cannot be acceptable in this day and age? It would drive people over the top. The guy who was smashing that door and generally going wild clearly did veer into criminal activity.
We dont know all the backgrounds and histories of course but seems like we are going back to Victorian days of pile em high and charge them dear for a little bit of space and damn the consequences. the landlords are probably not the ones being woken up at 2 am by violence
Ruth
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Permalink Reply by Anette on
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We’ve had a really good meeting with Nora about this, and we’re also having a meeting with the council, it’s being set up at the moment. So we’re finally being taken seriously.
The issues here are: Whoever’s placing people in there needs to look at who they are and what their problems are. Putting someone who’s clearly anti social or with drug problems in a residential area is not fair on other residents in the same house or the neighbours.
When there’s trouble they need to listen to us, not treat us as the trouble makers. Use us to help them police the situation instead. That would be beneficial to both he council, other people in the same house and the rest of us.
We also need one point of contact, and this needs to be consistent. It cannot change on a regular basis so that we start from scratch each time they stick a complete nutter in there. If people leave the job, we need the name of another one taking over, and there needs to be a proper file on this house.
I also find it very interesting that the house was an illegal conversion, and at the same time was being used by the council. Very embarrassing for someone!
I completely understand that these people need to live somewhere. Hey, I need to live somewhere too. And I work bloody hard to live where I am. Why should my life be ruined by someone who does not appreciate the fact that they have been given housing? Why should someone who’s been given a chance and is clearly abusing that chance be protected? I know for a fact that in the tenancy agreement these people have with the council, it states clearly that if they cause any problems they will be evicted and it will also jeopardise their chances of getting permanent housing, So you would have thought that would stop them and make them behave. But unfortunately some of them do not care. I know they are warned, and in most cases the behaviour continues. They’re asking to be back on the street if you ask me!
Limelight properties who own this house are notorious for being uttely crap, running houses no better than slums, and giving the neighbours a hellish life. I am pretty sure they’re also playing the system with regards to illegal conversions. How can these companies continue to operate within the frames of the law? How many other people’s lives are made hell due to their unscrupulous practices and bending of planning rules and regulations? These people must be stopped!
A lot of the individuals put in to no 76 are clearly not suited to a life in a property in a quiet residential area and should be supervised a lot better. This is not happening, and is another issue that needs to be addressed.
Clive, I am very interested in your comments about a half way house, as I know that’s what it’s been referred to as. And it explains a lot of the s**theads we’ve had in there and their absolutely horrible, anti-social, aggressive and scary behaviour. I wonder how legal it is to put potentially dangerous individuals in there, completely unsupervised? Or how legal it is to have a house like that in a neighbourhood without warning the neighbours about the potential dangers?
Loads of questions for the upcoming meeting, anyone have any other questions, post them, and we’ll ask!!
I have a glimmer of hope this can be sorted out, but if it is not done to my complete satisfaction then I will go down the media route. The last thing Harringey Council needs now is more bad press, and this whole thing is a huge can of worms just waiting to be opened up to the right media.
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Permalink Reply by Julie on
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In February 2005, I went directly to Nilgun Canver about a problem we had (letter below.) Within a few weeks, my next door neighbour was being handcuffed and bundled into a police car. We never saw him again and the property has been peaceful ever since. I offer this as a ray of hope because when the problem is solved, it's as if it hadn't happened.
The failures in the system have been tackled too, according to Nilgun and Lorna who were responsible for the noise team and the call centre. The personnel have changed and the Safer Neighbourhoods Team are our first port of call these days. I'm sure it's not perfect, partly because people don't want to stay working for Haringey, and we have to stay vigilant about local services and keep shouting for improvements.
There's something else I've learned about problem neighbours, though, and from discussing it with friends who live in very different postcodes, or even outside London: it's luck, or rather, bad luck. It could be a parking dispute, a leylandii hedge or squatters. Friends who live in West Hampstead have been driven practically insane by a concert pianist who lives next door. The barrister who acted for Haringey council in our case described the living hell of his upstairs neighbours' kids who used laminated floor above him for skateboarding. The lesson I've learned from it is to rejoice when it's not happening and to be calm, meticulous and dogged when it is.
One other thing: Ita O'Donovan didn't ever reply or acknowledge my email. When she's gone, things will have a better chance of improving.
Good luck,
Julie
Dear Nilgun,
It's four fifty five. I've been sitting here since 4.15 being blasted by my
neighbour's music. I am trying to finish a submission on the new school
and the keys on my keyboard are vibrating. We have tried calling the
council. Our call is important to them and will be answered in
approximately 15 minutes. In the end we get through and we're told the
system is down. "What other ideas have you got?" I ask. They try the back
office number for Derek Pierce but his line's engaged. There are no other
strategies available.
I explain that my neighbour has signed an undertaking with the court (this
is a joke; he breached it as soon as he got home from court on January 3rd)
and that if I get it witnessed, it will result in seizure of the equipment,
eviction, fine, injunction with a power of arrest, even imprisonment. Any
of which will make my life quieter and improve it immeasurably.
The manager at customer services explains how busy they are. Oddly enough I
already knew this because I was told it repeatedly during my exceptionally
long wait on the phone (which is on my phone bill now.)
My neighbour is a public sector leasing tenant housed on a temporary basis
which has, alas, proved to be not nearly temporary enough. As a council tax
payer, I pay his rent. (He does not work. If he is fined, I as a taxpayer,
will pay his fines.)
The ASBAT have been involved. They conducted an initial assessment on their
second visit. On their first visit, they went to his house
instead of coming to us, by mistake. This was a pity as I and my husband
had taken the morning off work. On their second visit they told us it
wasn't anti-social behaviour but noise. They gave us a leaflet for the
noise team.
We explained about the shouting and swearing, the drugs and firearms raids
by the police, the domestic violence in the middle of the night, the graphic
language, the smell of cannabis and the open dealing, the loud music from
his car, and his friends' cars and the night he stood and urinated in the
street. He has threatened us, and confronted us for complaining. Does that
not sound like anti-social behaviour to you? Not particularly social,
though, is it? In the end the ASBAT took the case. There was an interim
injunction initially and then a court undertaking. Our neighbour celebrated
this in the way you might perhaps have expected.
Noise from loud music is the most obvious manifestation of anti-social
behaviour and it is the key to getting something concrete done because it
can be witnessed, by a reliable (ie court-acceptable) witness. It can't be
separated out as a stand-alone offence, to be dealt with like factory noise.
Deliberate, defiant noise is one of the single most important issues in
Tottenham; it degrades the quality of life not because we don't like the
music but because it can be used as a form of bullying. There are people
who generate it in order to dominate their neighbours. They're not just
having fun, they're saying, 'Yeah? What are you gonna do about it?' This
gives them cover for the other things they do.
The noise officers, though helpful and sympathetic, are simply not available
quickly enough most of the time. Sometimes they are not available at all.
I have not kept records throughout this process but on at least twenty
occasions we have been told that there will be no officer until the evening
or that there is currently nobody at all on duty. On one occasion I got
through to the office itself and was told by the officer, 'There's nobody
here but me and I'm going home soon, I've got diarrhoea.' (This officer has
since left. It cheered me up a bit, at the time, his candid lack of being
bothered was refreshing.) Most of the time nobody rings back within the
hour and sometimes nobody rings back at all. This is completely
unacceptable.
I have come to blame the call centre for some of this. It was never
brilliant before but it was better than this. I have waited patiently (for
twelve minutes) while they, 'Can't get the form to load. Bear with me...
I'll try again... What's your address? Oh wait a minute... I can't get
the form to load....bear with me a minute... OK what's your...Oh dear... It
won't load again.... Bear with me.... What's your address again?' I have
waited patiently listening to the recorded message and I have answered
questions about whether I have a disability whilst the walls vibrate.
I'm not completely clear about the role of the housing manager but the
situation doesn't seem to be managed any better than the housing (The
property is virtually derelict.) Our neighbour seems to have been able to
persuade council officers of his remorse, good intentions and helplessness.
The housing manager functions as a kind of social worker for him, trying and
failing to persuade him to behave. He's different for them. If the housing
manager lived next door with our neighbour, things might be better. It's
not much of a strategy, though, is it?
We went to a mediation meeting with him recently, because the court
suggested it and we have at all points done what we have been asked to do by
the professionals involved. He told us cannabis was part of daily life so
the fumes were unavoidable, that the problem was with me because I was often
at home to hear the noise. He lied, shouted and sulked. He tried to
insist that we come next door to tell him when the music is too loud. He
said 'It's their fault. They think just because I'm aggressive they can't
approach me.'
Shortly after this meeting there was a major incident where the police had
to be called. The upstairs neighbour complained about noise, the noise
officer responded immediately and issued an abatement notice. Our neighbour
responded by hammering on the door of the upstairs flat and shouting at the
woman who'd made the complaint. He ended up staggering around in the
street,swearing, roaring, half dressed and then he went inside and locked
the front door with key that only he possesses so that his neighbour, at
home with a baby, was trapped in her own flat. The police came and with
great difficulty persuaded our friend to unlock the door. The upstairs
neighbour had to come, with the baby, next door with us. The neighbour
downstairs then locked her out. (The locksmith wasn't particularly
impressive either: he took four hours to arrive.)
This was January 22nd. Today is February 21st. We have provided
statements, the lady in the upstairs flat has provided a statement, we have
provided the crime number to the ASBAT so that the police attending could be
identified and asked to provide statements. The noise officer (who has
turned out to be the only one in this sorry story that we have any
confidence in) has provided a statement (he did this the next day and hand-
delivered it to the ASBAT officer.) We thought there would be a court date
shortly after, but I discovered today that nobody knows when the court will
provide a date. It's all with the legal team. We've been sent some diary
sheets to fill in, though. And some prepaid envelopes.
I've had enough now, Nilgun. I don't care whether it's enforcement or
environment or housing. I feel as if nobody in this situation (with some
notable exceptions) is doing their job properly and I'm ashamed of Haringey
Council for the poor service I've had from them. The noise team officer
rang at 18.14, two hours after the noise started and about an hour and ten
minutes after it ceased. He was embarrassed. He'd finally received the
call an hour before but had been caught up in an emergency. I didn't ask
him (I didn't need to) whether he was the only officer on duty. Of course
he was.
We're not employing enough people. We're, in some cases, not employing
people who care enough. (A friend said to me the other day, 'The officers
who live somewhere nice don't care and the ones who live in Tottenham have
low expectations.') I don't like having a go at any of these officers. I
know I need them to help me so it doesn't pay to antagonise them. I don't.
Even when provoked. Most of the time they can tell how desperate I am and
they sound helpless and ashamed. Why would anyone want that job?
Someone needs to be efficient, and brave, and determined to sort out my
problem. I know you are all these things so I'm putting the ball in your
court. I'm really disappointed that I couldn't make the system work for
myself and that just following the process step by step, and trying to be
polite, hasn't worked. I speak and read English. I have a college
education. I can afford my phone bills. I'm not scared of a mindless noisy
thug. I'm not a typical Tottenham resident, though I've lived here for 24
years. What must it be like for some of the others? I'd call it suffering
in silence, but that's not the right term for it.
Julie
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Permalink Reply by Alison P on
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Wow Julie. Awful awful thing to go through, and strikes so many chords with me (I live next door to Anette). But what a fantastic letter. I'm not surprised it got the job done. It sums up so many of the problems with trying to engage with the Council over this sort of issue. Thanks very much for posting it.
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Well Done Julie. A lot of people would have given up. This sort of things is about standing up to be counted even when our lives are being ruined by others. Its about human rights. It often seems these days that only those who cause trouble can have theirs protected. The UN declaration on Human Rights states that we all have a right to live peacefully, without threats and bullying and violence.
I am fighting bullying at work and a vindictive redundancy. I have felt like given up recently as I am fighting management who protect themselves not their staff it seems. You example is an inspiration to continue my own fight for my rights
all the best Ruth
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We were never going to let a person like him win. And Nilgun and Lorna were brilliant. Brian Bowater from the noise team (a retired police officer himself) and the SNT, developed a real appetite to deal with it because, though seething, we were always reasonable. Most of the the council staff involved got behind us, eventually, though their instinct, in a wild world, is to trust nobody and treat us all as 'residents.' (It's easier that way.) The exception was the truly pitiful housing manager who had bonded with our neighbour and wanted to be the one to save him.
On your work issue, get help from your union, there's also a website called kickbully.com which has advice and useful links. Also, and it's a bit like what I said to Anette, don't let up on people, but try not to let them live in your head, rent free.
Julie
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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Anette, As you know I'm no expert on this whole area, but updating the HoL Wiki pages this morning, I came across Selective Licensing. Start here on the Wiki to find out more. (Towards the bottom of that page, you'll find a section on Selective Licensing).
I tried to find out if Haringey are already using it al all, but all links turned up by a Google search seem to be broken.
Maybe you've already investigated this route, or perhaps it's a dead-end..........but just in case.
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