Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Significant Changes Proposed for Harringay in Local Boundaries Review - HAVE YOUR SAY
The Local Government Boundaries Commission (LGBC) has proposed significant changes to the ward boundaries for Harringay.
Currently parts of Harringay are contained within three wards, Harringay, St Ann's and Seven Sisters.
The polling districts map included in Haringey's submission. Harringay Ward is comprised of the 4 'HA' dsitricts, St Anns, of the 4 'ST' ones and Seven Sisters of the 'SS' ones. The full map is online here.
The recently tabled proposals would see the number of Harringay wards reduced by one. Two completely new wards would be created, dividing Harringay into North and south with some non-Harringay adjuncts on the eastern borders. The precise location of the north south divide is unclear at the moment. According to the map in the report (attached below), it would be along the garden fence line between Allison and Hewitt. According to the online map, it would be between Seymour and Warham Roads. (I'll drop a note to the responsible office and check which is correct).
The proposals also see the namer Harringay wiped from the local government map for the first time in 130 years. The northern ward would be Ducketts and the southern one Manor House.
The LGBC gives the following explanation for the mounting of the review:
An electoral review examines and proposes new electoral arrangements for a local authority. A local authority’s electoral arrangements decide:
- How many councillors are needed.
- How many wards or electoral divisions there should be, where their boundaries are and what they should be called.
- How many councillors should represent each ward or division.
When carrying out an electoral review the Commission has three main considerations:
Improving electoral equality by equalising the number of electors that each councillor represents.
- Ensuring that the recommendations reflect community identity.
- Providing arrangements that support effective and convenient local government.
Our task is to strike the best balance between these three considerations when making our recommendations.
The review process started last year. A consultation which ran from the end of November to the start of February invited views on the future. Only 11 submissions were received (including one from yours truly):
- Haringey Council
- Haringey Council Political Groups
- Haringey Labour Party
- Haringey Liberal Democrats
- Local Organisations
- Crouch End Neighbourhood ForumLocal Residents
- Six local residents
- Anonymous
- One submission
This was a predictably very low submission rate. This gives the Council's view undue weight. And, according to the Commission's report it sounds like this is just what happened they've been heavily influenced by the Council's submission, including the removal of the Harringay name from the local electoral map. In the west the Crouch End Forum submission provided an influential counter-weight to the Council. Sadly no organisation made a submission from Harringay.
My view on the proposals is that they do have some merit. The previous set-up used Green Lanes as the dividing line and included parts of areas to the east of Harringay that have little identity or practical unity with our area. My own submission focussed on this aspect.
It is positive that Harringay is now only divided into two wards. The boundaries aren't perfect, but they aren't wholly wrong either. However, I'm unsure about the wisdom of dividing the Ladder in two.
There is now a further consultation period where you can have your say on the proposals. If you do intend to comment (and improve on the 0.003% resident response rate last time), I think it might be helpful if comments relate back to the LGBC's intended objectives, as stated above:
- Ensuring that the recommendations reflect community identity.
- Providing arrangements that support effective and convenient local government.
The full and summary reports are attached below. The consultation runs until 5th August. You can add your comments here.
I'll certainly be objecting to the name for the southern part. It seems daft to use a name for an area that's in Hackney! I can't think why the Council are STILL trying to shed the Harringay name. I'm not sure yet whether I'll comment again on the boundaries themselves: the problem here is that any suggestions made to any one boundary will need to be compensated for somewhere else. So it becomes very tricky.
I would urge you to have a say.
Tags for Forum Posts: boundary review, harringay name, local government boundary review
- Attachments:
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Web_Haringey_Draft_Report_0.pdf, 3.9 MB -
Haringey Summary sm.pdf, 285 KB
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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No it’s not simply an administrative rationalisation, Tris. I’ve now had it confirmed that as far as the local Labour group is concerned, this is all about deleting the marginal ward of Harringay and creating a safe Labour ward in its stead.
I’m always in agreement with, the very wise Dick Harris. My clarification was merely a matter of changed emphasis.
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Permalink Reply by Dick Harris on
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I have now submitted comments in my own name as follows:
My comments are related only to the proposed warding arrangements for what is called “Harringay and Seven Sisters” (ie paragraphs 51 to 53) in the Haringey Council Draft recommendations dated May 20 published by the Local Government Boundary Commission for England.
My first comment relates to the forecast number of voters which I believe are much too low. Page 29 of the report shows that the population of voters in the new Manor House ward is expected to rise by only 146 (ie 1.5%) over the forecast period. Looking at the census data for the three relevant existing wards (ie Harringay, St Ann’s and Seven Sisters) it is clear that over the ten year period 2001 to 2011 the resident population rose by 7,571, ie 20.9% or 2% per year. Precisely how the number of voters relates to the total resident population I do not know, but I suspect that some serious under counting is hidden in the figures given in the table on pages 29 and 30. Could it be that most continental EU citizens have been excluded from these figures because of Brexit? Even discounting such a plainly mistaken approach, earlier trends would suggest that the number of voters in the new wards would have risen by about 12% and the prospect of such a large development as St Ann’s hospital would be on top of this. As an active supporter of the St Ann’s Redevelopment Trust, I believe that within the timeframe of the forecast, there is likely to be about 800 new homes created on the St Ann’s hospital site and these new homes, on their own, would accommodate well over 1000 new voters. I suggest therefore, that the figure of 9,845 voters forecast for the new Manor House ward in 2024 is more likely to be 12,000. What price electoral equality?
My second comment relates to the names proposed for the two new wards. I do not object in principle to the idea of choosing our main shopping street (Green Lanes) as a common focal point for local residents. Indeed, the shops themselves and the residents on each side of Green Lanes identified the area as Harringay soon after the previously open land was built up in the last 20 years of the 19th century. The name Harringay has been in common usage ever since and was used in both of the precursor boroughs for the names of wards. That perhaps is why the famous former dog track and Arena were called Harringay even though they were both located in Tottenham urban district and why the Harringay factory and warehouse district is also so called.
If the area that bestrides our part of Green Lanes needs two wards because of changing numbers of voters, the obvious thing to call them is North Harringay and South Harringay - also used by our local schools, incidentally. Duckett does of course have some historical roots which led to the naming of Duckett Common on the corner of Green Lanes and Turnpike Lane and also to the naming of Duckett Road further south in the Harringay ladder. One might well ask, what is the point of using again the name of the long defunct and forgotten Duckett’s Manor which was located not in the new ward but up the road under the shopping city car park in the newly minted Noel Park ward. The proposal to use Manor House is even more bizarre. It seems that almost any moniker will do so long as it not Harringay. The Manor House is a tube station in Hackney near the site of an old coaching inn in Stoke Newington manor. The name spread northwards to a large housing estate (also in Hackney) which, having acquired a reputation, is reputedly now being phased out again in favour of the area’s previous name Woodberry Down.
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Permalink Reply by JoeW on
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Interesting point about the likely increase in voters once the St Anns development is occupied. Further increases are likely from the Hawes & Curtis site, and I believe at some point both the Harringay Arena (Sainsburys) and Jewsons on Wightman Road are earmarked for housing? Since I understand these boundary reviews happen every 10-15 years, the new and perversely named Manor House ward looks set to become quite a monster before it gets reviewed again!
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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on
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Hi JoeW,
I am an active volunteer for StART, your local community-led housing organisation. We help bring genuine affordability in perpetuity to the homes planned for the St Ann's hospital grounds. When the NHS shrunk the existing hospital by selling off 7 of it's 11 hectares to the GLA in late 2017, they'd already obtained planning permission for 470 homes.
Now it looks to me as if it could be 800. StART's extensive consultation campaigns saw local people clearly say they would accept increased density provided they could afford to live there.
If 800 happen (could be more) this will mean around 2,000 new St Ann's residents, starting in a few years, probably with around 500 moving in by around 2023. Guess they too will call it as St Ann's, whatever the ward is called by then. If the current 5,000 sq metres of non-residential space is put to use, guess St Ann's will become more of a destination, reinforcing the St Ann's name further.
Can't resist a plug: we actively seek out local people who can spare the time to attend the public 'organising' meetings we've been holding for years (7:30pm every other Wednesday, Chestnuts Community Centre). For over a year we've met the GLA regularly, having been appointed full members of the GLA Steering Group (with the Council also attending). Everyone is very welcome to get involved.
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Thanks for the info Chris. That's a good point about the St Anns identity - under the proposed ward the St Ann's school and actual church will be in the redrawn Seven Sisters ward whereas the new housing on St Anns hospital grounds will be in the increasingly stupidly named Manor House ward (because the Labour Group think that's how we refer to it locally!)
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Here's how the wards have changed since about 1950.
1. From about 1950, the Harringay ward boundaries still reflect the old borough boundaries.
2. Following the 1978 review - The Ladder was unified into a single ward and the boundaries of the two main Harringay wards were aligned to Green Lanes. The boundary between Seven Sisters and Tottenham Central was tidied up.
3. Following the 2001 Review - St Ann's Ward was created. Seven Sisters was extended east.
Some of the rationale given for the changes in contemporary reports:
From the 1978 Rewarding report:
3. Natural Boundaries
Wherever change of boundary was necessary, the Council had sought to adopt the most significant natural boundary as defined in the
Commission's criteria, e.g. the main north/south railway line from King's Cross, the east/west railway line from Green Lanes to Tottenham High Road and, as major roads, Green Lanes, Wood Green High Road, Tottenham High Road, Lordship Lane, West Green Road, Phillip Lane and Westbury Avenue as boundaries. It had not always been possible to achieve the most satisfactory boundary while at
The same time meeting the requirements of number. In such cases, where it had not been possible to adopt a significant natural boundary, the Council had endeavoured to achieve the best possible link between the more obvious naturally occurring boundaries.
4. Green Lanes.
This ward was the same as the existing ward except for the thin strip to the west of Green Lanes (the road) where the constituency boundary followed an old field boundary. The northern boundary of the ward was West Green Road, the western boundary was Green Lanes, the southern boundary was the east/west railway line, the eastern boundary was Black Boy Lane and Warwick Gardens. 81% of the electorate of Green Lanes would remain in their existing ward.
6. Harringay Ward
This was a new ward recognising the reality of the community in the "ladder", The northern boundary is Turnpike Lane, the eastern-boundary is Green Lanes, the western boundary is the Kings Cross to Edinburgh railway line, the southern boundary is the Borough boundary.
Harringay is a new ward and So none of its electors remain in the existing ward.
From the 2001 Report:
91. At Stage Three both the Cross Party Working Group and the Council argued for the retention of the existing Harringay ward boundaries. The Council stated that while it recognised the “logic” of seeking to improve electoral equality in Harringay ward, it believed our proposal “cut across the natural boundary” of the “major traffic thoroughfare” of Green Lanes. It also argued that the road effectively divides the communities on either side. The Cross Party Working Group put forward similar views.
98. At Stage One, the Council proposed that approximately one third of the electors from the current Tottenham Central ward should be combined with the whole of the present Green Lanes ward to form a new St Ann’s ward. The remaining electors from Tottenham Central ward would be placed with 1,227 electors from High Cross ward and 1,924 electors from South Tottenham ward to form a new ward to be named Tottenham Green. Seven Sisters ward would retain its name and additionally include the remaining electors from South Tottenham ward, while the remaining electors from High Cross ward would be included in a new ward named The Hale (see later paragraphs in this chapter). The number of electors per councillor in the Council’s proposed three-member wards of St Ann’s, Seven Sisters and Tottenham Green would initially be 1 per cent, 1 per cent and 2 per cent above the borough average respectively, projected to be 3 per cent, 3 per cent and 4 per cent above by 2003.
99. We acknowledged that the Council’s three proposed wards in this area would secure reasonable levels of electoral equality whilst generally maintaining good boundaries and reflecting local community identities. However, in order to further improve upon the level of electoral equality in its proposed St Ann’s and Tottenham Green wards, and also in the neighbouring Harringay ward (as discussed earlier), we proposed transferring 320 electors from Tottenham Green ward into St Ann’s ward and 426 electors from St Ann’s ward into Harringay ward.
100. With our modifications, the number of electors per councillor in the St Ann’s and Tottenham Green wards would be equal to the borough average and 2 per cent below it initially, projected to be 1 per cent above and equal to the average by 2003. We put forward the Council’s proposed Seven Sisters ward without modification.
101. During the Stage Three consultation, there was a general endorsement of the proposed Seven Sisters ward. Given this consensus and the relatively good level of electoral equality which would be achieved in this area, we are content to confirm the draft recommendation for the proposed Seven Sisters ward as final.
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Tracking back before 1951 - but no maps I'm afraid.
In 1887, the rise in population in the west of Tottenham led to the division of the borough into 6 wards: High Cross, Middle, Lower, Wood Green, West Green, and St. Ann's. The Gardens roads and the western parts of Vale and Hermitage were all in St Ann's ward. What I call northeast Harringay - east of Green Lanes, North of St. Ann's and east of Blackboy Lane was in West Green Ward.
Hornsey became a Unitary District Council under the Local Government Act, 1894. It was was divided into the 8 wards of Highgate, Muswell Hill, Crouch End, Hornsey North Haringey, South Haringey (Note the spellings!) , Stroud Green, and Finsbury Park.
By 1900 middle class residents in the far west of Tottenham, including the eastern end of the Ladder rung roads, were apparently resentful of their inclusion in predominantly working-class wards. They sought to be transferred from Tottenham U.D. to Hornsey. To appease them, Harringay ward was created in 1901, out of parts of West Green and St. Ann's.
In 1926, Green Lanes ward had been created, including all the Gardens Roads, the eastern ends of the Ladder Roads, Green Lanes and reaching across the east-west railway line to include the western parts of Hermitage and Vale Roads. The new Chestnuts Ward took in northeast Harringay and went east as far as Seven Sisters Road. A few parts of Eade, Vale and Hermitage were in the new Stamford Hill ward.
The set-up from 1951 was covered in my last comment.
Here's an effort at representing the development of our area's ward names over time. If you're in a ward border area and you're interested in where your particular house lay in all this, do ask. I'll give more info if I have it.
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Permalink Reply by jp quethiock on
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I am not a resident of Harringay but live in the old Borough of Tottenham yet I might add my half penny's worth. In 2001 my neighbours and I were divided down the middle of our residential road into St Anns and Tottenham Green wards. In terms of what community I belong to it is foremost my street so to have us reunited into a Seven Sisters ward does seem to end the stupidity of our road having separate political representation depending on whether you face north or south. To be united as Seven Sisters seems correct for us as the local station of that name is the focal point of the area. Manor House is a ridiculous name for those that might be said to relate public transport wise to the two Harringay Stations which so many use for their daily commute. Given that so many commute out of the Borough for work an identity based on the transport hub name would certainly cement in our minds where we live. Maybe the Ladders is split as it was when built between those that get the train at Hornsey and those that get it at Harringay.
Of course there have been proposals to greatly reduce the number of London Boroughs in themselves and already many share their HR and Pensions and IT services with neighbouring Boroughs. So the construct Haringey may disappear long before the generationally repeated image in the minds of locals that they live in Harringay.
Incidentally, you can still see some of the boundary markers between the old Urban District Boroughs at kerb level. Some photos of these are on the Geograph website. The one in Umfreville Road was removed by the homeowners who rebuilt their front wall some years back which seemed to me an act of historical vandalism.
Generally speaking I always assume that boundary changes are done for political advantage but we are not at the level of our friends in the USofA where gerrymandering has produced such marvellous sleight of hand that a greatly outnumbered vote wins the day. That I only read about the boundary proposals here on Harringay Online does however seem to say much about the disdain our political leaders have for local opinion. Did the Council advertise these proposals at all?
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Hi jp, I agree that the redrawn Seven Sisters ward makes much more sense.
I have little doubt that the changes proposed by the current administration are founded in seeking to achieve political advantage. Harringay Ward is very marginal. Splitting it and mixing the halves with strongly Labour voting areas is no coincidence. I have had as much confirmed to me by a well-placed source at the Council.
I hope the Commission is as objective as it comes across. If all the locals who I've spoken to voice their concerns about the proposals and the Commission listen, then I think we'll see changes to the proposals. If, on the other hand, being the Council means you hold all the trumps, then no doubt they will have it their way.
I am aware of no publicity circulated by the Council. I think they'd be quite happy if they could quietly just slip this one through. I hope local people will ensure that doesn't happen.
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Permalink Reply by Melvyn on
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A circular letter from the Lib Dems says that Labour was in agreement with this split. Is that true?
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Permalink Reply by Gordon T on
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Tris commented back in May, quoting Labour:
"The Labour Group's submission offers some clarity on the choice of name:
"We are proposing two wards centred on Green Lanes and Harringay ladder, we have split this area into North and South because this was the best way to ensure a logical ward pattern and electoral parity.. The first of these wards would cover the southern part of this area. We are proposing an area substantially containing Haringey’s N4 postcodes (N4 equates to the Finsbury Park “post town”). This area is known locally as Manor House, due to the proximity of the station, so it is proposed to name the ward after this. This provides better representation for the areas surrounding Finsbury Park in Haringey."
So, yes, Melvyn.
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