Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Harringay (Green lanes Area) Transport Study
A letter just dropped through y door asking for feedback. Here is mine:
"I hope the council considers the permanent closure of Wightman Road. Gradually commuters and long-distance drivers are realising they need to either use alternative main roads, or switch to public transport or cycling. The study shows that residents overwhelmingly do not own a car (61%), and prefer public transport, walking or cycling for their commute (82%)."
Tags for Forum Posts: harringay traffic study, traffic
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ben Adam Sohawon on
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I definitely think parking should be completely prohibited on Green Lanes, whatever is decided about Wightman Road. Not sure about a red route; I think double yellows should be enough. I remember back in the early- to mid-90s that there was a campaign to prevent Green Lanes from being turned into a red route, as this would be like putting a wall across Harringay. That said, red routes were a relatively new thing back then, and perhaps people didn't quite understand the effects of them yet.
Yes, it definitely needs to be a wider solution. As I see it, the traffic situation in Harringay is a big problem, and in my albeit limited life experience, no big problem ever has one solution; it has to be attacked on several fronts.
I'd be absolutely ecstatic if we could get trams round here, and the little boy in me would be jumping about like an idiot, but let's face it: it's sadly not a realistic prospect, as it would have to fall under TFL's jurisdiction, and I don't think they'd entertain any kind of proposal focusing on just Harringay, or even Haringey, over anywhere else. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of cross-borough organisation? Maybe some sort of liaison with Islington, Hackney, Enfield, and/or Waltham Forest?
Ultimately, I think it would be best if brain-storming were done under the assumption that Wightman Road won't be closed (even if it will be), because all solutions proposed need to be good ideas in either scenario. Let's face it: traffic management in Haringey has been shocking for years now. The two junctions by the Arena shopping park by themselves are demonstrations of that.
I'm going to read through as many of the other proposals as I can. Hopefully, after all my bluster, I can add some suggestions of my own.
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Permalink Reply by Peter Chalk on
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Inner London boroughs are developing no-car housing. I propose that for the Arena development given its proximity to Manor House.
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Permalink Reply by andy h on
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No car developments are already here.
And as you say - given its proximity to harringay green lanes station and manor house it certainly will be car free apartments.
Almost all new developments in haringey are expected to be car free these days.
Interestingly, developers are very keen on them. They can squeeze more apartments/ houses on any one site boosting profits, Leaving the car free aspect to be policed by the council. A win win for them.
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Permalink Reply by JoeW on
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One thing to note is that the Arena (Sainsburys and Homebase etc) is earmarked for replacement mainly with residential though with shopfronts along the road. The junctions of Williamson and Endymion with Green Lanes will get restructured as part of this. I think those junctions are at the heart of the Green Lanes congestion, with or without traffic reduction measures on Wightman. Hopefully the junction restructuring could include taking the bus stops off the main route.
I'd be interested to hear your observations on how at the current Wightman closure has affected Endymion. I've been in 10 minute eastbound queues on Endymion at certain times of day - like Sunday afternoon - but other times - like weekday mornings - it has seemed surprisingly quiet. Unfortunately I don't think there was any traffic data for Endymion in January - the closest we have is Upper Tollington Park which recorded 95K vehicle journeys, plus can see 47K exiting Wightman (actually Alroy) onto Endymion and maybe 48K entering Wightman from Endymion.
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Just thinking about this a bit more, it is not inconceivable that the closure of Wightman has been neutral on Endymion traffic volumes, or even reduced it. I think there have been longer queues at certain times of day but maybe only because they can't exit onto Green Lanes when the Arena junction is at a standstill?
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No. I can say with certainty that I have never known the traffic to be this bad; there is no way at all the closure at has helped reduce the traffic. Yes, there are times when there is almost none during the day, but they are now much fewer than before, and the times when the traffic is backed up are definitely worse than before.
Put it this way: barring exceptional circumstances, I have never seen the traffic so regularly backed up as far as the junction with Oakfield Road, and whilst Endymion Road has had ten-minute queues in the past (to be fair, that's more down to the hideously-planned junctions with Green Lanes, as you say), there have never been this many, and I have personally experienced, on the odd occasion, fifteen-to-twenty-minute queues, no exaggeration.
One thing that has helped a little, and am sure will help greatly in future if everything is rearranged properly, has been the placement of No Stopping Zones at in the road at the junctions with the roads leading on to Endymion Road, at Venetia and Tancred Roads. They could be a bit wider; they only open up space for traffic to leave those roads at present, and a big problem for the traffic at the Homebase junction is that quite often cars leaving Green Lanes want to turn into one of those roads, but can't because of drivers blocking them, which of course leads to them blocking the traffic coming up.
In the final analysis, whether or not Wightman Road ends up being closed or not will surely hinge on how effective not only Green Lanes and the Arena junctions are dealt with as a whole, but how Endymion Road is as well, as it's the only route other than Seven Sisters that cars can get from Finsbury Park to Harringay.
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Yes I can believe the traffic queues are worse - I have been in them a couple of times back to Oakfield as you say. My point is this is not necessarily caused by additional vehicle journeys on Endymion itself.
If there are normally say 50K eastbound journeys per week on Upper Tollington Park, say 25K of these normally enter Wightman, but another 25K exit from Wightman to replace them heading east (the other 25K exiting Wightman head west). Closing Wightman could have a neutral effect on that traffic.
The queues might just be caused by problems exiting onto Green Lanes - if you have peak traffic flows of 5-600 vehicles per hour, it wouldn't take long for a queue of 100 vehicles to form (back to Oakfield) when the GL traffic is jammed around the Arena junction.
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I'm sorry, but whilst I'm a firm believer that correlation does not equal causation, in this particular case, I'm afraid I can't agree with you. The traffic worsening the way it has and to the degree it has pretty much coincides with the closure of Wightman Road.
If the traffic problems were solely down to the problems with the junctions on Green Lanes, then we shouldn't have seen any such changes at all. There haven't been any major events on Green Lanes in the last eight months to cause them, certainly not of this magnitude.
I truly mean no disrespect, and I wish to be as co-operative as possible in joining in with the debate and brainstorming, but I can't help but suspect that your position is being coloured a little by wishful thinking. The fact is that there are only two direct ways for cars to get to Wood Green, and closing down Wightman Road has now reduced that to one. By Living Wightman's very own admission, 1. Wightman Road's purpose as a B-road was to alleviate traffic, and 2. there was a lot of traffic going down it. Removing that very road from the equation with no new roads built or ways opened up now means the job of traffic alleviation is simply not being done. That traffic has to go somewhere, as it was never going to just disappear - that is the very essence of a bottle-neck.
I'm not saying this to be adversarial, unco-operative or snide; as a resident of Endymion Road for nearly four decades, I say to you with all the certainty I have that closing Wightman Road has affected traffic on Endymion Road, that we who live on it are feeling the effects of it, and that the best way to find some sort of solution that will allow residents of Wightman Road to get the best quality of life possible in the wake of this closure is to acknowledge this, instead of looking for ways to deny it or dismiss it.
I want to be a good neighbour to all of you, even the ones I've never met and may never meet, as I truly believe in the value of community - but community has to cut both ways. I don't have access to the hard figures, but I have access to my and my family's experiences of life on Endymion Road, of life in Harringay itself. Please bear these in mind; I'm doing my best to listen to yours.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on
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I think you are absolutely right that Endymion Road has be considered as part of whatever solution might be proposed.
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Sorry Ben I am not trying to be adversarial either, certainly not seeking to deny that you are seeing significantly more queues and the queues are longer. Just trying to understand the possible causes.
It must be true that certain Endymion journeys are no longer being made. Northbound traffic on Green Lanes that used to cut up Endymion to continue north on Wightman can't do that any more - it has to continue along Green Lanes. Southbound traffic on Wightman that used to exit Wightman and go down Endymion to continue south on Green Lanes can't do that anymore - it is forced to used Green Lanes from the beginning.
Equally, there will be some new Endymion journeys. Journeys between say Stroud Green and Wood Green that used to use Wightman are now having to use the Endymion/GL junction. There may be some traffic from the west that is now avoiding Turnpike Lane and heading for Upper Tollington Park and Endymion via Crouch End (I think this type have traffic may have turned out to be less significant than expected though - when the road closures were first put in place I think there were Access Only signs on Oakfield Road, but have turned out not to be necessary).
When there is a tailback on the motorway, it is often not because of an influx of additional traffic, but by an accident or obstacle interrupting the flow of the existing traffic further up the road. It seems quite possible that this is the key factor at work on Endymion, rather than a net increase in journeys - the actual number of vehicle journeys could be the same or even less, but the flow of traffic exiting Endymion onto GL is impeded by the congestion around the Arena.
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Permalink Reply by Nick on
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Joe, you seem very determined to prove that the closure of Wightman Road has had little to no effect on traffic in the surrounding area, even when presented with overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
The 120,000 (200,000) vehicles which used Wightman every week have not simply disappeared. They have mostly dispersed into surrounding roads, as far as Wood Green, Crouch End etc, causing increased, and at peak times, mostly stationary traffic on many roads, most of them 'residential'.
I agree with a previous commenter who said those complaining of increased traffic were met with derisory comments from supporters of the Wightman road closure.
If you really want to support the road closure, you must surely accept the fallout, rather than denying its existence.
Also, removing parking on Green Lanes and increasing the Bus Lane hours will not solve the traffic issues, though it would improve bus journeys.
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Nick, see my reply to Ben above, I am not denying there is a serious problem on Endymion, just suggesting the cause is not necessarily additional journeys being made on that particular road.
Regarding Green Lanes, congestion is worst between the Arena and the Salisbury. Northbound it gets better after the Salisbury - that's not because there are suddenly fewer vehicles after that point. It's because there are fewer interruptions, such as traffic lights in close succession, bus stops, vehicles entering or leaving the parking and loading bays, vehicles entering GL from a rung road, waiting to exit via the Gardens or waiting for a southbound GL vehicle to exit via a rung. It's a perfect storm at the best of times, but eliminating parking, increasing bus lane hours, relocating bustops where possible, maybe removing the traffic lights at the Salisbury Road junction, etc., would all help significantly.
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