Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
PCN for stopping in yellow box
Does anyone know if there is a minimum time limit for stopping in a yellow box junction before a PCN is issued?
I've just received my first ever PCN which is for, briefly, stopping in a yellow box. I called the enquiry number because I could see that in one of the photos on the notice I was moving. I have an automatic car and if the brake lights aren't on it means I'm moving.
The person told me to check the colour pictures online. I've looked and my break lights were on in 2 pictures which are 2 seconds apart - the next picture is 21 seconds later with no brake lights so I'm moving again.
So I was stopped for between 2 and 23 seconds - is this long enough to get a PCN?
It wasn't the whole car in the box, but my back wheels and boot were in the box.
Tags for Forum Posts: PCN, box, fines, junction, traffic, yellow
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Joss M on
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Aren't you permitted to be in the yellow section of a box junction as long as your exit is clear, stopped or not? Maybe I'm not understanding the situation though.
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Permalink Reply by Justin Guest on
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Glad you put this, I have always been worried I would get a ticket up at Turnpike Lane, trying to turn right onto Westbury Avenue...
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You might already have googled box junction minimum time stopped but if not, there are some useful hits, particularly a whatdotheyknow item that gives Hammersmith & Fulham council's enforcement protocol (which isn't terribly encouraging - if you stopped at all, that's enough.....). But there are other hits that suggest you might, if you take it to review, get an adjudicator who is susceptible to the de minimus non curat lex tactic (the law does not concern itself with trifles).
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Permalink Reply by JulieB on
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Thanks for the replies. I don't remember it happening but the pictures show me behind 2 other cars the front one had stopped to let a single decker bus turn right out of a side road to my left. I must have thought I had enough room to stop but didn't quite have enough room.
Gordon - thank you for that search term, I found the thread where someone won the appeal because they were only stopped for 4 seconds and their view had been reduced by a bus in front of them who stopped suddenly.
It does seem that there is no minimum time though and I'm thinking that 23 seconds might be too long for the de minimus non curat lex rule and I should probably just pay the fine.
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JulieB. NEVER EVER simply pay up without an initial challenge. There's a web address on the PCN where you can email them and tell them why you are challenging the PCN, something like, 'my car was only partially in the box and was still moving'. NEVER EVER admit guilt without them first proving it. You won't be penalised for the initial challenge so it will still be for the same amount £60 i think ? After you make the challenge you'll get a letter with a decision and if it's a 'no' you can then go ahead and pay. hope this helps.
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Thanks James, I am going to email them and ask if they have a video - I think that will show how long a third of my car was stopped on the box and if I entered it after the other cars had stopped.
It's good to know I should get a decision within the 14 day limit of the reduced fine.
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This is the place to look for advice
There's people on there who can find a way out of almost any PCN!!!
My personal opinion is that anyone who gets a contentious ticket should at the very least submit a FOI request asking for a long list of data regarding previous PCNs issued at the same place. It may not get you off, but will give you the satisfaction of at least knowing someone has got to do some work for your £60, and if everybody did it, they may think twice before giving out tickets at the drop of a hat!!
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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on
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Wanted to endorse the pepipoo link - I've used it several times over the years with success - the people on it are great, so generous of their time - many seem so expert I think they're really practitioners :)
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Thank you, I've asked them (what an amazingly helpful site) and they said that the de minimus non curat lex rule has been successful for stops under 5 seconds but they think 23 seconds is long enough to merit a fine.
It is my first PCN in 29 years of careful driving - I do regularly have to ignore idiots/other road users beeping/swearing at me for stopping outside yellow boxes and slowing down too much to turn left at tight a junction.
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Keep on telling yourself 'I'm driving correctly, you're not', then. One PCN per 29 years is an excellent batting average!
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Permalink Reply by Sapphireblue on
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I agree with James. I always challenge unless I can just hold my hands up and say 'its a fair cop guv' (rare)/ At very least it buys you time to raise the money or reconcile yourself of to parting with it. I'm astonished this is your first PCN. If you drive in London with the voracious wardens and huge numbers of hidden cameras its almost inevitable to get loads(well a few a year). It' s part of our taxation system and the main supplementary income for Harringay council....
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