Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
1.5 million bill for cleaning up after Haringey's fly tippers
The Tottenham Journal reports that it cost the borough 1.5. MILLION to clean up after the borough's fly tippers. They compare this with Camden and Islington -
In comparison, Islington had just 2,634 reports of flytipping, while Camden had 10,950, costing the boroughs £101,706 and £229,852 respectively to sort out.
Anecdotally, tales of being told by neighbours and fly tippers that its "all right" when they fly tip because the "council will clear it up" demonstrate that there is a gap in people's understanding here as they seem to (want) to believe that this behaviour comes without a cost to the community.
£1.5 million is a lot of money to spend so the questions that spring to mind are how can people in this borough be taught to see the financial cost to the community of their fly tipping behaviour? Why is it worse here than in Camden and Islington - have they done anything different from which we can learn? Or are there circumstances peculiar to the borough that need a specific solution?
As ever when I see this kind of figure I have to ask WHY? What is driving the mind set that tells itself "it's all right, the council will clear it up" and how to we change that mind set for good?
Tags for Forum Posts: fly tipping
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Abi on
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The 'council will just come and clear it up' thing is completely true and is absolutely the source of much of this problem. I'm a wuss when it comes to confronting people (in offline situations...), but this one bothers me enough that I'll willingly go up to perpetrators to have a word.
Last time I did this, I was 'reassured' by a business owner responsible for flytipping that it was 'OK' for him to use trees and lamp posts to dump rubbish, because Veolia treated the ones he was using as 'bins' and collected from these spots every day. In fact, he seemed deeply troubled that I appeared to be drawing attention to this little arrangement, and behaved in a quite threatening manner towards me which made me feel unsafe in my own neighbourhood for some weeks afterwards.
This report makes depressing reading but is hardly going to come as a surprise to any of us. Perhaps drawing attention will help in some way, but I'm losing faith.
The effect that this type of scene has on residents' mental health should never be underestimated.
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Permalink Reply by Liz on
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I agree Abster that "cost to the community" can't only be measured in financial terms but also in loss of well-being and community confidence. Ultimately, it can make people leave an area, including businesses which again comes at a financial cost to the community. Where traders are implicated, how can the Trader's Assoc bring their weight to bear upon the culprits because ultimately a street full of rubbish can turn into a street without customers?
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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It's very difficult to tell to what extent this issue reflects the prevalence of fly-tipping in our borough and how much it is related to Haringey offering a better reporting infrastructure and response, if it does so. I'd also be interested to know if there's any difference in the cost per clear-up between boroughs. I wonder how boroughs like Lewisham, who offer a similar reporting infrastructure compare.
Michael Anderson got to this story several weeks before the Journal and posted a discussion here.
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That's as may be but the *cost* is what I (and the Journal) focus on here which is new information.
So where do the figures for clean up for the other boroughs come from? Are you suggesting that Islington and Camden have the same amount of rubbish but it doesn't get reported and cleared up? I worked in Camden for years (not the posh bits) and I don't recall the fly tipping that I experienced living in Haringey.
I think it's too simple to say that it just gets reported better here so it costs more. There is an issue here - we have the photos from across the borough to prove it. So again we have to ask why?
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If the focus is cost, we need to ask why the expenditure is being committed. Hence my questions. I wasn't putting forward explanations, merely pointing out that there's many a story behind the stats. As a starting point, I find it hard to believe that people living in Haringey behave so radically differently to those on Camden or Islington. So I was wondering if there might not be other explanations.
Why is of course the question. I've no idea. Does anyone have any thoughts?
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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As I have said before, if only the #labourdoorstep that will be in full frenzy in Haringey for the next 6 months could whisper "http://www.haringey.gov.uk/index/contact/report-it.htm" as well as "bedroom tax" and "save the NHS" we'd be a million pounds richer. I'd even join them some weekends if they did that.
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Permalink Reply by John D on
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We all know ( but are perhaps afraid to say ) what the problem is.
People fly-tip.
We have the wrong type of people in the Borough - too many lazy, irresponsible, selfish people with no pride in their community. Transients and their landlords.
Well done Abster - we should all confront the tippers.
The Council should pursue and prosecute the offenders
The schools should educate the children in civic responsibility.
It's the same mindset as the driver who went through a red light. When I told him a red light means " STOP " he said " For you, but not for me "
Please note - I make no assumptions as to ethnicity.
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I'm not afraid to say it - I have said it. It's what my whole post is about. Unlike the original article in the Journal, I can't blame a party, or the council or the cabinet member. But calling people names for their behaviour doesn't change it. We need more imagination that calling people the "wrong type" - what none of these people (transients, landlords, students etc) live in Islington, Camden? They all come to Haringey? Really, *None* of them have any pride in their community?
No, it's not enough. Something is telling them its ok - anecdotally I've heard of people who've lived here for 30+ years using 'the council will clear it up' argument as they dump in the Passage. I've seen a Grandma with a pristine front garden sweep rubbish into the street. I've caught a little old lady letting her dog out the front to have a crap in the street. I don't think we can assume we know who "these people" are or what motivates them.
Educating children has been done for years - you can tell kids one thing and they are usually brilliantly receptive to it, but if the adults are doing something else they're not going to have the courage to confront it or do differently.
John has a point that parties don't campaign on it between elections, undertaking to educate people.
There does need to be more prosecution but that also comes at a cost - stopping people before it gets to court is a cheaper option.
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My children learned at school that smoking was a bad thing. And they gave me hell until I stopped.
Something is telling them its ok - no, nobody is telling them it's NOT OK
As to cost - isn't it cheaper to reduce flytipping than to go on meekly clearing it up ?
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Well yes, to your second point - again that's what I'm saying but we need to find out from the people who do it how they can be persuaded to stop (Alan calls it my ethnography theory). Asking for solutions from people who don't do it aren't going to get to the root of the mindset.
As to your first point, well I'm sure that it wasn't just because they got lessons from school, there were government campaigns, NHS campaigns - lots of money put into helping smokers give up - your kids also became aware that it could kill you (unlike fly tipping) which gives a certain urgency to their nagging , and finally legislation made it increasingly difficult to do. We're nowhere near those levels of intervention for fly tipping - it's largely left to cash strapped councils to solve on an individual basis.
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I know of the nicest, loveliest people who think that the way to get rid of things is to dump them in the passage. Bless them though as going out late at night and dragging the stuff there is a lot harder than picking up the phone...
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