Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Tottenham High Road is beyond saving
Haringey Council is at it again. They are putting forward yet another consultation plan on the future of Tottenham High Road. The council have 'identified' parts of the moribund centre for 'investment', while completely ignoring the fact that for so long, many of their policies have caused so much damage to the wider area.
On top of a poorly maintained environment, restrictive parking zones, and poor planning controls, many traders have now suffered a double whammy with the recent riots that has seen many shops and stores on the brink of collapse and others have closed completely. They also have to put up with the stupid "I Love Tottenham" campaign, a cynical publicity stunt trumpeted in the council's "People" freesheet.
The so-called help the council given to traders is too little too late, at a time of an economic downturn in which more public-sector staff already serving one of the most jobless and deprived areas of the country are facing the sack. Football club Spurs' recent decision to stay at White Hart Lane may please the massive number of fast-food outlets who are dependent on them for most of their income, but beyond that there never will be anything to entice people to shop and spend time locally as private investment remains nonexistent. The wider area will continue to stagnate socially, while the few locals with money to spend will continue travelling to neighbouring shopping and cultural areas instead.
The just published report by government advisor Mary Portas into the future of the High Street argues that some of main shopping areas are beyond saving. I have long said that Tottenham High Road at the present time is beyond saving, and I believe Haringey Council should divert the resources from what is currently spent in this 'black hole' to support the borough's other main shopping areas, including of course, the vibrant Green Lanes.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by clyde on
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I did hear that the council had rejected TFL's first set of plans as they wanted the emphasis placed on the new Tottenham Hale Village traffic reduction (err village!!! no green or pond but I am sure there will be a pavement called a public square somewhere in the plan). The council, according to the ex Naill Bolger I was told, has zoned Seven Sisters as the new Croydon - just bring on more riots then. The original plan which actually improved the A10 High road by widening the pavement of both sides with more intensive greening would have improved the area. Rather than the planned ridiculous 6 lane motorway, with 2 lanes acting as a bus station with no right turning into broad Lane. I just get the feeling that this zoning of Tottenham is so 70's in thinking. Which is the era in which we ended up with Monument Way planning - err monument to what and who?
The Council needs to stop all these grandiose schemes like the motorway construction and the wards corner ugly towers and concentrates on raising the quality of the area with human issues for the people in live and vote in the area. Stop all these Selby Centre (the new NDC) consultants and actually start listening to people. Bring the South Tottenham Plan up to date to date to deal with modern issues of the environment, shopping patterns and new people coming into the area, give the area the same quality emphasis as the richer parts of the borough.
The first question is how do we all get the widening into 6 lanes stopped and the right turn into monument way re-established. Write to Anne Lippett, maybe? www.haringey.gov.uk/programme-director-to-lead-tottenham-improvements.htm? Her agenda is to give Tottenham a lift (or bigger shoes) by liaising with the stakeholders and the community.
I expected we all attended something so must have been consulted but in case we forgot we were consulted write to her anyway but what else can we all do?
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Hopefully it isn't too late.
I do hope that all residents of Tottenam and wider who received their Regeneration questionnaires took the time to fill them out.
If you want to contribute you can also look here and say your piece.
http://www.haringey.gov.uk/rebuildingtottenham
It may not be too late and lets hope the Council doesn't just pay lip service to the exercise as I fear they often do - going through the motions and just applying in the end, the ideas they had in mind any way. I feel that their idea of regeneration is displacement and replacemenet of the 'deprived/problem elements' of the population instead of seekiing to improve these people's quality of life. "nBecauase its all about money as someone very important to our community told me last night. And "there will be casulties" as councillor Strickland said last year.
We'll see iin 30 years!
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Permalink Reply by Neville Collins on
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There's no real point in contributing to anything. After I read the consultation paper, I threw it away, because history suggests that the council will not listen to local peoples' views. Ward's Corner and Hale Village are classic examples. In ten years' time after yet another series of riots, we will be asking the same questions on websites such as Harringay Online over and over again. Improvement of Tottenham must be community-led, and in order for this to happen, local groups must come together to put forward an alternative rebuilding plan and distribute it widely. The council must be bypassed if we are to deal with the area's deep-rooted problems.
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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Where I hope we can agree, Neville, is that senior Council staff and "cabinet" councillors have to undertake a far more transparent and open process than ever before. Let's get as many ideas and suggestions as possible put forward, with new thinking and willingness to listen to others.
We seem to agree about the out-of-place out-of-scale Hale "Village". A squandered opportunity.
We may or may not agree about what I see as the nonsense of having another "Cultural Quarter" around Tottenham Green. As if trying to corrall creative businesses made any sense other than for property developers who want to exploit them.
But please also bear in mind that under planning law, owners of land and buildings are entitled to bring forward proposals which you and I may not like or agree with. We can try to influence them but powers to control may be limited. Though some of the proposals coming forward may be positive.
As you imply, If there's one thing that's certain about the riots, it's that simply doing what we did before isn't going to work. We need open minds and some honesty and humility about past mistakes.
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Permalink Reply by Seema Chandwani on
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With all due respect Cllr Stanton, you are one of my favourite Cllrs mainly because you refuse to partake in stupidity & spin, a ground level man from the community for the community but I disagree with your optimism...
Whilst I totally disagree with Nevilles initial point that Tottenham High Road is beyond saving, I do agree that the charlatan consultation that arrived through my door was of comical value...
- "You told us you wanted safer communities" I mean really... was that a shock? Did a couple of people actually disagree and explain they enjoyed being mugged and cant wait for the next time?
- "How do we get more people in to jobs?" Are we talking about the 20,000 vacancies the business of Tottenham have been moaning about they cant fill?
This consultation is so leading; vague and ambigious, that any response will be seen as support to pre-decided plans of the council. It is obvious that the council are already planning around building houses in an already over saturated area and invest in some short term employment scheme to tick a box. It is an insult to the intelligence of the people of Tottenham to send them such patronising items through our door, paid for by our money and then have the nerve to say these leading questions are somehow giving us power.
The constant need for the Council to see retail as an option for regeneration is mindboggling, we have Harringay arena; Tottenham retail park in addition to the high roads of Wood Green; Muswell Hill and Crouch end... even a shopping addict like me can not fuel this economy.
In regards to the rubbish our money is already spent on... "i love tottenham badges and bags"? I dont need a bag or badge to proclaim my love. Most councillors wear this like a symbol of dedication... why close the YOS building; the environmental services building and the youth centre, all venues that bought in office staff and footfall into the area that used local businesses such as the gym; cafes; resturants and bakeries. Exactly who loves Tottenham when we speak about Spurs wanting to close but the Council closed THREE offices in the riot zone area.
I am awaiting your colleague Cllr Strickland to respond back to my queries around this consultation and as someone who grew up here through the first riot, lived through the second I and many others are not going to let the councils incompetence create a third.
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I went to see the play 'The Riots" on Friday at the BGAC and post show there was a debate. The audience was asked to give three words when they expressed their view point and the word 'angry' came out ALOT!!!
If "they" continue to botch the "improvements" and persevere with the tokenism, riots and violence will continue!
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I was there on Friday night too... I tweeted about the anti Labour sentiments that were coming out...! Labour are not doing themselves any favours by patronising their residents and isolating themselves from reality. When I asked Areeb (on the panel) what the kids felt before the riots... the word was "INJUSTICE" and to me, that speaks volumes. If people feel injustice in a democratic country we will have unrest
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Thanks for the compliment, Seema. Though actually I'm not optimistic. On the contrary I fear that the opportunity for new ideas and new thinking after the riots has steadily shrunk. Instead many people - in the Council and outside it - seem to think it's good enough to repeat the same mistakes as before, while hoping for better outcomes.
At the best of times, that's misguided. As we know, for most people this isn't the best of times.
But I very much regret Neville's pessimism if it leads him and others to feel: "There's no real point in contributing to anything". Disengaging because "you can't buck City Hall" is exactly what keeps the head honchos of every City Hall comfortably in charge.
The Spanish poet Juan Ramón Jiménez wrote: "If they give you lined paper, write the other way."
Nobody has to stick to the consultation format on the Council's website. It's intended as a helpful guide. But if it isn't helpful, choose your own format for criticisms, ideas and suggestions. Above all, share them with the wider Haringey community.
(Tottenham Hale ward councillor)
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@Seema:
"In regards to the rubbish our money is already spent on... "i love tottenham badges and bags"? I dont need a bag or badge to proclaim my love. Most councillors wear this like a symbol of dedication... why close the YOS building; the environmental services building and the youth centre, all venues that bought in office staff and footfall into the area that used local businesses such as the gym; cafes; resturants and bakeries. Exactly who loves Tottenham when we speak about Spurs wanting to close but the Council closed THREE offices in the riot zone area."
Exactly the point.
@Alan:
"But I very much regret Neville's pessimism if it leads him and others to feel: "There's no real point in contributing to anything". Disengaging because "you can't buck City Hall" is exactly what keeps the head honchos of every City Hall comfortably in charge."
Again, exactly the point.
The real problem is that the borough has long been, many people argue, a 'chaotic' council, whose organisation is often rudderless and leaderless. Poor management has long been an issue. The controversy over the problems with our education service, the closure of youth services, the withdrawal of park services, our neglected housing estates, poor environment, and of course the misspending of regeneration spending, all this and countless other issues all have a negative effect. Councillors spend their time rebutting every criticism of policy instead of tackling these very problems. Of course the council has to reduce its spending, but they have seen to do it in a very muddled way.
Tottenham's High Road was more vibrant thirty years ago. If the council are allowed to get away with wasting yet more public funds here, there will certainly be more riots in the future.
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Hmmm, I think there is a misunderstanding with the notion of democracy in Haringey... my understanding is we elect Cllrs to represent us, to stop 216,000 people needing to be involved in every detail which is not physically possible. They are chosen based on what they say they will do/believe in (manifesto). Understandably there are times specific needs/issues arise outside of normal council business (cuts; new needs; new developments) and these elected reps I thought were meant to gage our views and represent/advocate our wants/desires to shape the direction of travel
The notion of democracy in Haringey is... "we want to build more houses, but we arent meant to be seen as dictators, so we will ask the public [our subjects] with blantantly leading/vague and disempowering questions like 'Would you like us to tackle shortage of housing?" ... Guess what, the 28 dumb people who actually took time to answer say... YES (Actually one says no... as he wants everyone to live in Ducketts Common!) Suddenly a huge development comes up, people object and the Cllrs say "You told us you wanted this!" Erm... no we never!
This isnt democracy, this is manipulation & charlatan dictatorship. 90% of the consultation questions are vague/leading and sooo ambigious it leaves a mandate for Cllrs/council to do what they want and say they are merely carrying our wishes.
We really aint that stupid in Haringey, bar graphs/pie charts and thermo maps that are used to show the results of these surveys dont sugar coat the truth that there was no consultation.
Whilst I welcome your advice that the format is just a guide, I disagree as I would like to see the evidence that those (including myself) who have emailed last year actually have their views taken into account.
I am not sure why we elect people only to have no choice but to represent yourself & create your own consultation. Nevile is right when he says "Councillors spend their time rebutting every criticism of policy instead of tackling these very problems." If it is not worrying Cllrs that only 31 people turned up to a spending consultation or 600 (1% of Haringeys dwellings approx) have completed the Tottenham Regeneration survey then I have to question their benchmark/quality measurement of what constitutes as their understanding of democracy. Surely alarm bells are ringing that these methods are not working!!!
Lastly, there is no point us writing to council with our ideas as we are either not given the right level of information to begin with or its not available for us to make an informed contribution. The spending cuts are 36 pages of what is proposed to be cut... where is the information on what is spent or how much running the whole council costs. No mention on how much debt interest we owe, or how much is in reserves, or what our capital assets are worth/cost, how many managers/staff are in place?
The spending profile for Haringey Council is showing a spend to private companies of £35m (approx a month) of which over £1m a month is on temp agency staff? A council that is the biggest employer could not redeploy the staff they made redundant in the jobs they are paying £1m a month in temps (this doesnt include the £500 + a day consultants!). Where is the information on salaries; the comparison between commissioning costs vs running in house? I suddenly have to search for it becuase Cllrs are hiding it on an obscure website? This is democracy? This is community involvement? This is the injust and frustrating tactics that will assist in reducing community tensions with the 'establishment' to avoid discontinement and further social unrest?
Lets stop insulting peoples intelligence and start having adult responsible dialogue for solutions, the games are boring and dangerous!
(But you still rock thou :) )
#Frustrated :)
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Permalink Reply by Christopher Fowler on
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There seem to be a lot of complaints here about the Council not listening to the views of the public. However, from the figures presented here for numbers turning up at consultation meetings, or responding to surveys, it is apparent that hardly anyone in the public can be bothered to be "engaged". Indeed, if you look at the percentage of the electorate who turn out for local elections, it is apparent very few can be bothered to turn out and vote. On a slightly different topic, the numbers turning out for parliamentary elections is low enough to be of concern. If voters are not even prepared to get off their bums and go to a polling station to cast their votes; if they can't be bothered to fill in a questionnaire on what they want from the council; if they can't be bothered to go to a consultation meeting; then they are going to get exactly what they deserve, which is a council that makes the decisions for them. What else are councillors supposed to do? They've been elected to govern the council and its spending and revenue gathering. If they consult on plans, try to get people's views, but get little or no response, what else can they do except follow the policies they believe to be right.
Now, I'm sure that Neville and Seema and others will scream about "no choice" or "whoever you vote for the government get in", the usual Trotskyist line, but the fact is that there's plenty of choice at local and parliamentary elections, and there will be for the Mayoral race in London. So, why not get off your bums and _vote_ in May, which is the next time you get a choice over what happens in London. And if you want your Haringey councillors to hear your views, stop wasting time whining on harringayonline, and talk to your councillors. When was the last time you did that, Neville and Seema?
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LOOOOOOOL!! I love people like you Christopher Fowler as you make assumptions rather than take any notice on the points I have made, but as you have amused me with your "personal" comments towards me and an obsession with my bum... I'll respond to your queries:
1. When is the last time you have voted: I was of legal age to vote in 1997, ever since 1997 I have voted in every local, general, EU and mayoral election that has taken place in this country...
2. When is the last time you spoke to your Cllrs?: I attempt to speak to them daily (if you actually read my comments you would know that) I have attended the councils spending meeting (one of the 31) on the 29th Nov, I am still awaiting Cllr Strickland to email regarding the Tottenham regeneration consultation after tweeting him led to strange responses. As for the likes of Lammy, he has never responded to an email I have sent, he initially ignored me on Twitter when I wanted to know about Betting shops and he has now blocked me as I refuse to tell him how great his book is. I am also awaiting feedback from the council regarding the youth survey. To be fair, the only person who responds to me (most times) is Cllr Goldberg (He doesnt when he cant defend... but thats enough for me!)
In regards to educating you never to make yourself look stupid and make assumptions on people you dont know again...
a) Firstly, I dont practice Trotskyism or indeed any form of Marxism... although there are a few points I agree with. Im not an anarchist; communist or socialist... I just practice common sense!
b) Secondly, not only am I a regular active voter, I am also a member of the Labour party, I attend a lot of meetings & have been involved in politics since I canvessed for Bernie Grant in 1987 when I was 8
There is a difference between accusing people of apathy/laziness and acknowledging their points... strangely the same thing you accused me of, you just practice. Now go back, read the FACTS I wrote about how the political process is undemocratically marginalising those who want to be involved through insulting non factual charlatan consultations and address the real causes of voter apathy. Surely someone as lazy as you made me out to be would not have scanned every financial account of the council to obtain facts to make a factual decision? I am sure you will enlighten me to what you have done to equip yourself with information or do you just salute?
Enjoyable exchange, thanks for the entertainment but back on the topic rather than on me :)
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