Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Women's safety
Hello all - I'm new to this site and think it's fantastic such a thing exists.
Really interested to read all your discussions, and wondered how other women who live in the area feel when they're out alone here? I have a massive bug-bear about living in this area (and it's not something I've experienced elsewhere): the disgusting attitude of many (young) men towards women. Apparently it's seen as appropriate to leer at any passing women, make obscene comments, or gross 'kissing' gestures (this latter one happened to me TWICE last Friday on Green Lanes, with one guy actually getting close to my face to try it whilst walking past me). The most shocking incident was a young guy on Green Lanes who greeted me with 'Alright, bitch' whilst passing me on a crossing!
Now, I don't dress 'suggestively' - it's winter for God's sake and I had about ten layers of clothes and a huge coat on! This seems to be a horrible ingrained attitude among many men, and seems prevalent among the Green Lanes menfolk to the point that I avoid walking down there at any time of day on my own. What do other women think? I carry a rape alarm at all times, but I fail to see the funny side of such behaviour: some friends tell me to simply 'ignore it', but at times the feeling is one of such intimidation that it's difficult to dismiss so easily. I tend to be a person who has to answer back when I'm insulted, but it seems like whatever tack you take - ignoring it or firing something back - has no effect. If we take a relaxed attitude towards it, what kind of message does that send out about what can be 'done' to women? Is there any hope for dissuading this kind of atrocious behaviour, and if so what could the approach be? Interested to hear other women's views and experiences.
Really interested to read all your discussions, and wondered how other women who live in the area feel when they're out alone here? I have a massive bug-bear about living in this area (and it's not something I've experienced elsewhere): the disgusting attitude of many (young) men towards women. Apparently it's seen as appropriate to leer at any passing women, make obscene comments, or gross 'kissing' gestures (this latter one happened to me TWICE last Friday on Green Lanes, with one guy actually getting close to my face to try it whilst walking past me). The most shocking incident was a young guy on Green Lanes who greeted me with 'Alright, bitch' whilst passing me on a crossing!
Now, I don't dress 'suggestively' - it's winter for God's sake and I had about ten layers of clothes and a huge coat on! This seems to be a horrible ingrained attitude among many men, and seems prevalent among the Green Lanes menfolk to the point that I avoid walking down there at any time of day on my own. What do other women think? I carry a rape alarm at all times, but I fail to see the funny side of such behaviour: some friends tell me to simply 'ignore it', but at times the feeling is one of such intimidation that it's difficult to dismiss so easily. I tend to be a person who has to answer back when I'm insulted, but it seems like whatever tack you take - ignoring it or firing something back - has no effect. If we take a relaxed attitude towards it, what kind of message does that send out about what can be 'done' to women? Is there any hope for dissuading this kind of atrocious behaviour, and if so what could the approach be? Interested to hear other women's views and experiences.
Tags for Forum Posts: Wightman Road, personal safety, rape, women
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Louise Nazeraj on
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Hmm, but as you can see, us wimmen have chosen to ignore it.
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Permalink Reply by rahman on
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There's no way to avoid it. A neighbour of ours who wears a hijab even has to endure the kissy noises and sexual comments. It seems the men around green lanes will harrass any young woman that moves, so its their attitude to young women in general, not perception of certain types of women. I have in the past retorted at particularly rude and insulting comments, but learned the hard way that its not the best thing to do as it can provoke even worse harrassment such as threats and being followed home. These days, I just stick my nose in the air and walk past without even acknowledging them.
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Permalink Reply by Anette on
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I've had this too, quite a few times and it's completely unacceptable.
I even had a strange little man ringing my doorbell one night after I'd just come in, asking if he could come in as he thought I was so beautiful! (must have been pissed..). My friend walked me to my door that night with her dog, so he must have followed us and waited for her to leave. Pretty pathetic, and quite scary at the same time.
I was also recently called a stupit b**tch when I turned around to someone who walked behind me muttering "hello daring, hi lovely, how are you etc etc", non stop. Asked what he wanted, and that was the response. Lovely. I had to duck in to the nearest shop, as he was quite intimidating.
I don't suppose neutering is a solution...?
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Permalink Reply by Ruth on
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On the one hand, self defence classes for women are a great idea. But then again, why should I have to spend my time doing such a thing when all I want to be able to do is exercise my human right to be able to move around freely without threat or intimidation? I think its these men, of whatever cultures, who should be going to classes and being taught that women have the right to walk the streets, whenever they like, and go about their business, without them getting in the way and making rude and derogatory comments. They should be the ones being re-educated. It seems once again, its left to us to do something about it.
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Permalink Reply by Pat Cadigan on
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In a perfect world, this is exactly how it would be. The men wouldn't even have to go to classes, they would already know better.
I get angry, too, when I think about all the extra things I have to know how to do just to make sure I get through the day in one piece. But remember, it's not just women who have to burglar-proof their homes, keep an eye on their belongings when they're out, and watch for unwanted company at ATMs. There's another discussion where someone talks about finding out thieves managed to get £250 out of his bank account after a few seconds of two people hassilng him at an ATM. And as you can see by the pronoun, he's not a woman. (But if I remember correctly, one of the people who hassled him was a woman.)
Posting on this topic means we've been talking about this in a very concentrated way. Let's try to remember that this is a relatively small part of our lives. Grossly unpleasant and disgusting--perhaps more so than all the rest of a bad day combined. But there's more to self-defense than physical action--self-defense involves the mind, too. We have to learn how to let go of what we experience on the street rather than letting it get under our skin. If a guy makes kissy noises and obscene remarks to you for a few seconds, let it end there. Try not to let him do it over and over again in your mind for hours after.
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The underlying problem is more than ten minutes of the kissy kissy stuff. I just dont want to walk down parts of Green lanes now at certain times. I dont feel scared but angry and fed up at having to run the gauntlet. This is where I live. I want to be able to live without cutting out the hassle. It seems though that nothing much can be done and I am now looking to move out of this area to somewhere without gangs of men loitering on corners who dont have any respect for me as a human being.
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I'm sorry if I gave anyone the impression that I was being dismissive or minimizing what's going on here. It's just that I'm almost sixty and I have been through all this and more. I learned to defend myself physically but I also had to learn how to keep things from weighing on me.
If we are having such a problem with aggressive men that women are frightened. then we should talk to the police. When you ask the police for help, they make a record of it.
Should we see about getting together and meeting with the police as a group? I would be willing but those of you who have had bad experiences must tell them what happened, where, and when. I will gladly come along and support anyone who needs it.
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Permalink Reply by Kit on
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Thanks for posting this, Anne. Very interesting and useful. In particular about locating and addressing persistent harassment. We all seem to have very different experiences and responses, and I'm wondering whether the suggestion about pinpointing where/when harassment happens could be useful. Should we put up a thread to report the incidents, see what patterns emerge? It could help us to pinpoint harassment hotspots that we could refer to the police or think of ways to address ourselves?
I also wonder whether the elephant in the room is the recent spate of attacks on women, which gives all of us good cause to feel unsafe?
Am I the only one who wonders why we are getting so little information from the police so late? Why are they keeping 'an open mind' about whether the attacks are linked, when street rapes are so uncommon? Why, in the case of the third attack, has it taken so long for the police to go public about it? Why have they issued a description of the poor victim but not of the attacker/s?
This is what's really troubling me right now.
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Permalink Reply by Katy Mendes on
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I particularly like this tactic, which they suggest on the site:
Tell the harasser that you are conducting a street harassment research project or survey. Take out a notebook and start asking them questions such as, “How often do you do this?” or “How do you choose which people to harass?” or “Are you more likely to do this when you are alone or when you’re with other people,” or “Do you discuss people you harass with your mother, sister, or female friends?”
I'm off to WHsmith to get my Street Harassment notebook right now :)
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No its not just Green Lanes but it has got worse here than it used to be. I think the general mistaken belief that feminism is for the over 50s and is no longer necessary cus we won equal pay (ha!) and we can drink ourselves stupid now just like men.
I see a revival of old attitudes and behaviour which leads to the sort of survey results published last week that indicate many people, including women, think it is partly women's own fault if they get raped. Shouldnt have been out alone, shouldnt have been walking down Green Lanes without a chaperone etc... Shouldnt have spoken to a man who approached her by waving kisses, in his culture it means ok, do what you like with me...
I feel rather than women gaining ground in public life, we are being pushed back. I am not scared just very fed up and tired of struggling for equality in all areas of life. Including to be left alone if I walk down the street.
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Permalink Reply by John D on
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Let's just be clear that the astonishing and shocking results of this survey claimed to show that more women than men felt that some victims of sexual assault should bear some responsibility for what happened.
I do think it's very foolish of a drunk woman to get into bed with a stranger but it still does not excuse a rape.
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