Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
'Space for cyclist' initiative launched to improve driver and cyclist safety
http://news.met.police.uk/news/space-for-cyclist-initiative-launche...
Great initiative, look out for these stickers "Thanks to the support of Havebike and London Cycling Campaign, 2000 car stickers with the words 'I give space for cyclists' will be given to motorists on the day and at Exchanging Places events"
Cycle Safety Team officers from the Met's Roads and Transport Policing Command will go to any location, at any time, on any borough, based on intelligence and complaints, to ensure drivers properly obey the rules of the road.
first driver pulled over was uninsured!
Recovery on scene to pick up 1st car stopped on initiative which happened to be uninsured #SpaceForCyclists @MPSRTPC
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Godfrey on
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The two scenarios are just not comparable. In my opinion the reason people scream and lose their tempers when out on the roads is because everyone (in a motorised vehicle at least) has taken a test and is expected to drive in a certain way within a set of rules that everyone should abide by. When those rules are broken it's the natural instinct to get angry because someone isn't playing by the rules. When you are in the supermarket and you bump into someone it's not the same at all. There are no rules or laws. Saying that if you waited for a long time in a queue at the checkout and some wise guy just sailed up to the front of the queue bypassing everyone else and proceeded to check his groceries out, I'm sure their would be the same feelings of anger and injustice and possibly violent trolley rage. But getting back to the point, they are not comparable.
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No my point is cyclists don't help themselves because the majority don't respect the law
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So we shouldn't do anything to stop motorists from knocking them off their bikes (even the ones that don't break the law)? Right...
No I think the police initiative is a good thing
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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on
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I don't think it's about rules Godfrey. There seems to be a culture of "I need to get where I'm going and no one is going to get in the way" amongst some road users. My father was Mr Mild Mannered but behind the wheel of a car he was a sociopath. You see it every day. Someone makes a genuine mistake and has to change lanes and the shouting and swearing starts up. It's about common decency and politeness - there are no rules for that.
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Is all respect for car drivers ruined by the selfish careless car drivers? Do you instantly assume that all car drivers are going to speed or run red lights.
After all they kill far more people, are to blame in the majority of collisions with cyclists, the vast majority of car drivers admit to speeding, the vast majority of red light jumping collisions are caused by cars, etc.
Are you also evangelising that all car drivers must take responsibility for bad drivers. Does the driving community need to get its house in order?
Why should one cyclist be responsible for others? I go on busses and there is rubbish on the floor, does the bus passenger community need to get its house in order? It's a bizarre concept.
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Is all respect for car drivers ruined by the selfish careless car drivers?
No
Do you instantly assume that all car drivers are going to speed or run red lights.
No because unlike cyclists they can be traced through the registration system and prosecuted
After all they kill far more people, are to blame in the majority of collisions
Agreed
with cyclists,
sounds like your opinion on that - unless you are there for every incident in some professional capacity
the vast majority of car drivers admit to speeding,
source?
the vast majority of red light jumping collisions are caused by cars, etc.
Here I disagree - I see more than a dozen cyclist jumping red lights every single time I use the road for a significant amount of time. I certainly don't see the same or more of this behaviour with motor vehicles. I don't actually think you believe this one yourself.
Are you also evangelising that all car drivers must take responsibility for bad drivers. Does the driving community need to get its house in order?
No
Why should one cyclist be responsible for others?
They shouldn't they should be responsible for their own actions.
I go on busses and there is rubbish on the floor, does the bus passenger community need to get its house in order? It's a bizarre concept.
Is litter covered in a lawful act like the road traffic act or are you perhaps letting your argument guide you down a bizarre flippant road?
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Is all respect for car drivers ruined by the selfish careless car drivers?
No
Why not, it seems like a bias against cyclists rather than a logical position if that is the case. Car drivers can be traced but the vast majority still break the law.
with cyclists,
There's a whole variety of research on this, the first to come up was https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crashes-involving-bikes-mostly-d...
the vast majority of car drivers admit to speeding,
http://www.traffictechnologytoday.com/news.php?NewsID=15562
the vast majority of red light jumping collisions are caused by cars, etc.
You may disagree but the evidence overwhelmingly says otherwise
Of pedestrians injured in London in a collision caused by red light jumping only 4% involve cyclists, whereas 71% occur when a car driver jumps a red light and 13% when a motorcyclist does.
http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/4756/cycling/stats-red-lights/index.html
They shouldn't they should be responsible for their own actions.
I agree, so why are you claiming that all cyclists should be judged as a homogeneous group, the cycling community whatever that is.
It is a bizarre flippant road, just like your bizarre concept of the cycling community.
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"If you could point out where I said anything about holding anyone responsible I'd appreciate the clarity."
Sure thing - you said "So until the cycling community get their house in order they will not get respect from car drivers."
Seems an awful lot like holding "the cycling community" (a) responsible for, and (b) somehow capable of policing, the actions of a anyone who happens to ride a bike.
Also "What I did say is unfortunately for the law abiding cyclists" - are these the ones you previously referred to as "super self righteous cyclists who claim they operate within the law"? - Forgive me if your sympathy rings somewhat hollow.
Break the law - careless selfish cyclists
Obey the law - super self righteous cyclists
Got to agree with Andrew, looks a lot like your issue is with cyclists regardless of what they do.
And again, the reason cyclists don't have to go through all the legal hoops that drivers do is the same reason articulated lorry drivers need a different license to car drivers. In a sane society, control is proportionate to risk. It's only insane societies that apply control based on making any member of an arbitrarily defined group responsible for (perceived) actions of any other member.
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Also "What I did say is unfortunately for the law abiding cyclists" - are these the ones you previously referred to as "super self righteous cyclists who claim they operate within the law"? - Forgive me if your sympathy rings somewhat hollow.
I was referring to the self righteous cyclists who seem to have the understanding that because they operate within the law that all cyclists do and won't accept that some cyclists break the law, or worse counter an argument with some statistic about car drivers like they are somehow comparable but I understand your confusion with this, I wasn't as clear as I probably should have been.
And again, the reason cyclists don't have to go through all the legal hoops that drivers do is the same reason articulated lorry drivers need a different license to car drivers. In a sane society, control is proportionate to risk. It's only insane societies that apply control based on making any member of an arbitrarily defined group responsible for (perceived) actions of any other member.
I totally agree with this, I guess what I am trying to say is if the cycling community are not willing to accept that there are a lot of people who are happy to ride unlawfully, if they are not interested because they ride lawfully and don't feel like preserving their freedom to cycle is their job, then at some point the authorities will get involved, removing the freedom of buying a pushbike from Halfords on a Saturday afternoon and riding it home. What I'm saying is at some point there will be licences, tests similar to the motorcycle CBT tests, compulsory insurance which probably falls outside the cover of home insurance and god knows what else. Elsewhere on this forum today there is a nasty story about an alleged motorcycle accident involving a child and again allegedly caused by a cyclist who chose to ignore the law.
That's my point, you may ask what the solution is. I don't know, but seeing the police put resource into policing drivers who infringe cyclist is commendable I'm sure we all agree. I would like to see the same amount of effort and support from the cycling clubs, lobby groups and individuals to pressure the police to tighten up the breaking of the traffic laws by cyclists. "Help us to clean up our act" if you like.
That's my point, plain and simple.
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You are right that car statistics are not comparable...they are so so SO much worse. So I am never going to ignore someone fixating on dangerous cycling as long as drivers are killing and maiming so many more people. Because you could take literally every bicycle off the road and the only real impact on accident stats would be fewer injuries to the cyclists themselves. What do you think would happen to the stats if you took away the motor vehicles? (And just to head off those who tend to jump to reply without reading, I am not advocating taking away motor vehicles, it's a thought experiment to demonstrate the relative impact of the two modes on accident rates.)
Any meaningful improvement in road safety has to come from better driving, because it's the drivers who create the danger. Now do you see why putting the focus on bad cycling while normalising drivers speeding, texting, jumping lights and so forth is such a problem?
And thanks for your concern, but there won't be CBT, compulsory training, registration or anything, because it is far too expensive to enforce vs the benefit it would bring. Because, as I may have mentioned, although bad cycling is more noticeable (or more accurately, less normalised) than bad driving, it isn't anywhere near as destructive.
Incidentally, I really hate seeing men urinating in the street. When is the male community going to clean up its act? I get not all men do it, but I see at least 2 or 3 doing it every day. How can men expect to be treated with respect when so many of them can't even hold on til they get home?
Do you see how ridiculous it is now?
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Permalink Reply by Haringey Cycling Campaign on
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Following a shout out on Twitter by @MPSHaringey, it looks like this initiative will shortly be coming to Harringay. Very strong response from Twitter users in favour of running this initiative on Wightman and Endymion road: https://twitter.com/MetCycleCops/status/890277634822856705
Will await more details with interest!
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Permalink Reply by Mavic Starfish on
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Excellent - thanks David. personally I think most drivers living in Haringey are respectful of other road users, particularly since the speed limit signs went up. The problem is the sheer volume of traffic driving through the area and trying to get somewhere else.
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