Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Info for Harringay Station, Great Northern upgrade consultation
Has anyone managed to navigate the labyrinth that is the thamesrailway.com website to find out exactly what changes are planned to services via Harringay Station come 2018? Trying to find out whether it'll be easier or harder to get to/from Winchmore Hill every day... thanks, Kit
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Arkady on
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With the existing Great Northern service It's a question of which tracks the platforms are on - the trains going up the Hertford Loop (Bowes Park, etc) often use tracks that do not have platforms at H&H.
The new Thameslink trains coming through from next year will be too long to stop at H&H. Basically both stations need a massive amount of money (and disruptive time) spent on them if they are to gain fully from the new services... Don't hold your breath!
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Permalink Reply by Ravi Bhatia on
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Surely the trains can change the tracks they use. And if the new trains are too long then they should just open the doors for the first 6 carriages and make announcements beforehand. They're meant to be trains like the overground where you can walk through the whole train.
I was just asking for metro the trains that stop at Alexandra Palace to also stop at H&H also not the express Thameslink trains. This means we would get a train every 5-8 minutes as opposed to 10-15 minute service and it wouldn't be too long a journey to then to change at Finsbury Park for the Trains down to Brighton.. And it wouldn't costmuch more money as you wouldn't need more trains or drivers.
Anyhow, I hope if we can get enough voices to improve the service they might listen.
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There's only so much capacity on the tracks, and some trains have to run on the line that leads to the Hertford Loop, so I'm afraid that "Surely the trains can change the tracks they use" is sadly a tad simplistic - if only! The answer would be to add platforms on all the tracks (as at Finsbury Park or Ally Pally) but that would be expensive, disruptive, and technically challenging. Maybe one day. Other trains (like the fast ones from Welwyn that you are complaining about) may or may not pass the H&H platforms but are designed to relieve pressure further up and down the line, and usually go to King's Cross instead of Moorgate anyway.
The new train stock that's replacing the rusting old class 313 will fit on the existing platforms just fine, and will have additional capacity too (though fewer seats). The problem is that the new 12-car trains feeding up from St Pancras are TWICE as long as H&H can handle - it's not acceptable (indeed illegal from memory) to use selective door opening in that situation. So we'll have to make do with changing at Finsbury Park - could be worse.
Either way, the service at H&H will improve both through additional trains-per-hour and through larger capacity stock. But a major boost to their capacity would require colossal investment and rebuilding of the pedestrian bridges, and will probably be dependent on a local redevelopment (or the Jewsons site in Harringay's case).
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Here's a couple of old articles I wrote which touch on this subject - a tad out-of-date but still useful.
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2013/east-coast-mainline-routes...
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2013/east-coast-mainline-routes...
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The solution to this H&H problem was obvious to any planner with half a brain by 1850, and certainly before 1866 or 1885. We never needed two H&H stations, just one Harringay-Hornsey station with two extended future-proofed platforms to accommodate trains of up to 12 or 20 . . . or 50 carriages. All is not lost, however. Just join up the existing Harringay and Hornsey platforms, throw a new pedestrian & cycle bridge across from near Harringay House to the Cement Depot (so conveniently sited), set your new H&H Station thereon, repair existing bridges, leaving you with six entry-exit points to/from the platforms - and half-hourly excursions for all of Harringay-Hornsey-Stroud Green-Crouch End to Brighton and Cambridge, or Horsham and Peterborough for the more eccentric travellers among you. Ah the peace and quiet that will then descend upon the residents of Wightman Road!
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OAE, perhaps you have been inspired by the outline plan for the eventually forthcoming High Speed 2/Crossrail 2 line interchange at Euston/St Pancras/Kings Cross - would cover roughly the same linear extent.
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Permalink Reply by John Leeming on
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When I lived in Quernmore Road I was delighted that Harringay (West) station was where it is, even though the service was so poor that hardly anyone used the station outside peak hours. If only we had had a train every 10 minutes in those days, let alone the improved frequency planned for next year.
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Thanks for those responses and articles. I see people have been thinking about this for a long time
My concerns are that although the service might be improved from next year, it's nowhere near as good as it could be given what else is available in Zone 3 in London. And given the population increase in London, it'll only get worse and worse over the next decade and we'll be having the same conversation in 2030. The fact is it will take longer to travel to Finsbury Park from Hornsey than halfway across London on the Victoria Line just because the trains are so infrequent even at every 8 minutes.
So the options are
1- to see if those trains with 6 carriages on the Welwyn that currently stop via Ali Pali and go to Moorgate can use the tracks that serve the platforms at H&H. In the new timetable there are at least 12 trains everyday between 6-9am that will bypass H&H. That sounds difficult given the articles you have written, and maybe train points might be a bit simplistic but maybe we should get Govia/National Rail to see if someone could think of a way for this to happen that might not have been possible in the past. Could we increase capacity at Moorgate with quicker turnaround of trains? Can they think of better working patterns to accomodate this? Is there an upgrade of signalling that might improve capacity which might be cheaper than upgrading stations.
If not, maybe we should lobby the local councillers/MP/DfT/TfL/the London Assembly for new and improved modern stations at both H&H that have wheelchair access and can accomodate at least 8 carriages. If this means trains every 3-5 minutes going to Finsbury Park and Highbury, then people can interchange for long distance travel and the Underground easily.
Maybe, being the newcomer, Im a tad naive and a tad optimistic, but the better the train service, the more people that will use it and get out of their cars. Which is better for all of us in such a congested area. 10 years ago the the North London and East London line were just as rubbish as this line. Now it has new stations and frequent services that run on time and have space for people to get on and its called the Overground. Im only asking for an upgrade of two stations.
Anyhow, the transformingrail.com survey closes tomorrow. The worst you could ask for is more frequent services. Even if they say no, it might help us when it comes to campaigning to upgrade the stations.
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Your passion is commendable.
I'd suggest that the best bet would be to start a campaign to rebuild the stations. It will have to happen sooner or later. I'd certainly support it. We should also continue lobbying for the line to become part of London Overground.
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It would be good to have the line as part of London Overground, which seems logical (though apparently politically unacceptable because London sometimes has a Labour Mayor. It wouldn't necessarily lead to an increased service, though, because of the other constraints. As I mentioned earlier, my London Overground services are every 15 minutes. From Walthamstow to Liverpool Street that's exactly the same as it was in the days when Greater Anglia ran the service.
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Every eight minutes is pretty good going for a National Rail service where a complex pattern of trains from all over the north and east of Britain converge, and is a huge improvement on past services. Where I now live in Walthamstow we have two National Rail (London Overground) lines, both offering a train every 15 minutes. It's nothing like the two-minute interval service on the Victoria Line, but because they have to fit in with so many other services, it's probably about the best that can be done.
Bear in mind, too, that passengers on the fast trains from Welwyn Garden City and beyond probably don't want their services slowed down by stops at H and H. What next? Expresses from Edinburgh stopping at Harringay, perhaps? :)
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Looking at the draft timetable for May 2018 onwards:
Although there will still be six off-peak trains per hour at Harringay and Hornsey, we will lose the 'clockface' every 10 minutes times - xx08, xx18 etc. The departure times will be xx04, xx16, xx28, xx34, xx46, xx58. Metro services usually aim to have a 'clockface' timetable.....
The morning peak services get one extra train (up from 4 to 5) 0600-0659, one extra (up from 7 to 8) 0700-0759, and no extra trains 0800-0959 (remains at 8 per hour).
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