Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
The Cyclists and Drivers Issue
We seem of late to be getting a rather high amount of posts which end up being diverted to the the drivers-are-bad-cyclists-are-good or cyclists-are-bad-drivers-are-good debate.
HoL is far from being the only place where these issues are debated and it is an issue that warrants discussion. However, my mailbox suggests that it's not one that perhaps deserves such prominence on a local website. So what we'll try for a bit is to divert discussions here when debate on the issue threatens to take over a thread seeking to address other ground.
As a starter for 10, two links (of which I'm sure there are many others and no HoL doesn't necessarily endorse the views expressed in them ):
- From Wired - 9 Things Drivers Need to Stop Saying in the Bikes vs. Cars Debate
- From the BBC - Why the war between drivers and cyclists?
A note to any who contribute - please recognise that this seems to be an issue which excites heated passions. Please debate with this in mind and keep it polite and respectful.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by HoL Site Admin on
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The use of "vs" in the headline was avoided most purposely.
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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And mentally added back in by everyone reading it.
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Permalink Reply by vaneska on
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I don't ride a bike or drive a car so no vested interests here. 2 things puzzle me in general though:
- the suicidal compulsions of many cyclists and motor bike/moped rriders - in particular the number of times I'm sitting on a bus and witness them overtaking on the left in slow traffic and barely escaping with their lives
- the way drivers feel threatened by cyclists and react with disproportionate aggression - you only have to look at HOL, let alone at their behaviour on the roads. This weekend I reported the driver of a 236 bus for verbally abusing a cyclist after trying to kill her on the road.
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I very much appreciate this post and I hope you don't mind me taking issue with something you've said in it. You accused cyclists of suicidal behaviour. I think that was wrong. Cyclists are not trying to kill themselves. What you are seeing is situations where a human in charge of a vehicle could, if they so chose through negligence or malice, kill a cyclist using their vehicle. What you are saying is that cyclists should stay away from this deathly situation, e.g. not filter down the left of the bus.
Let me draw yet another provocative analogy to see if I can piss more people off. Young ladies should not wear short skirts because men can't control themselves and will rape them. They're just asking for it.
I'm obviously not serious there, just drawing a parallel between the lack of autonomy motor vehicle drivers say that they have behind the wheel and the "uncontrollable urges" that men supposedly have.
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Permalink Reply by Protheroe O'Shea on
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perhaps what needs to be done is in order to pass test all prospective drivers should be made to spend a couple of lessons cycling on the road. until they have passed a cycling proficiency test they will not be able to get a licence. obviously this will not work for those already driving and obviously there should be some compromise for those with specific disabilities.
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Permalink Reply by ThaiDi on
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I agree entirely, I really think that drivers would behave very differently behind the wheel if they experienced a few close passes on a bike themselves. I think a lot of it stems from ignorance on the drivers' behalf of how terrifying it is to have a car whizz past inches away from you, for example, or forgetting that cyclists need to ride outside of the car door zone, hence in the middle of the road.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on
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Interestingly driving instructors back the idea of cycle awareness being part of the test
http://www.reddrivingschool.com/news/cycling-safety-element-in-uk-d...
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Permalink Reply by JoeW on
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Also local councillors and officers responsible for making decisions about transport policy should be required to cycle at least a little bit on the streets affected by their decisions. "Walk a mile in my shoes" etc.
I think I read somewhere that Haringey Cyclists invited a previous Cabinet Member For Environment to join them on a cycle ride. I doubt Peray Ahmet ever took the opportunity, maybe the new incumbent Cllr Pete Mitchell will rise to the challenge?
I also wonder how leader Claire Kober travels from her Muswell Hill home (on a street apparently protected from rat-running) to her ward surgeries in Seven Sisters. Could it possibly be that she drives through the Ladder?
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Nope John. Filtering, as you call it, occurs within a designated space, ie a cycle lane or a road with multiple lanes. This is overtaking on the left (I'm no expert on the highway code for obvious reasons) which I don't believe is considered good driving practice whether the vehicle is motorised or not. It is also undertaken in an unfeasibly narrow space which can change at any moment, and this change is not wholly dependent upon the driving of the vehicle being overtaken.
In fact the incident where I reported the bus driver at the weekend had the cyclist about to overtake him to the right, but with an extra lane in between. The bus drew away from the bus stop (Newington Green going north) and immediate cut across 2 lanes. My companion on the bus thought the cyclist might have been at fault as people are supposed to give way to buses coming away from bus stops. My argument was that she was 2 lanes across from him and couldn't reasonably expect that he could cross into her path without due warning (unless she was intimately familiar with the route of the 236). Personally I think he probably did it to intimidate the cyclist - he certainly used extremely intimidatory behaviour when she approached him later and this is why I reported him.
I get the point you are trying to make but I think you could use a better example.
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Absolutely wrong regarding filtering. It is by definition passing stationary or slow moving traffic between lanes, on either side.
I tend to filter on the right rather than the left, mostly to reduce the possibility of being doored. One exception being if a queue of cars is behind someone waiting to turn right ahead.
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Not really, it's covered more in terms of motorbikes than bikes in a legal sense but the premise is exactly the same that filtering in the same lane is perfectly legal and the Highway code says that car drivers should look out for cyclists and motorbikes who may be filtering.
I do agree though that too many cyclists filter on the left. It's not that surprising though, the set-up of cycle lanes and the attitude of many drivers is that cyclists should be over by the gutter so it is hardly surprising that that is where they end up.
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Permalink Reply by tigha on
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As a experienced cyclist I would like to enlighten you to the fact, it is actually pretty safe undertaking a bus and even undertaking round a corner if you are in the know. Buses are fantastic as they are experienced drivers, drive steady(as in don’t suddenly accelerate) They turn on a pin so don’t cut you up when turning on a corner etc totally different from lorries. I mean TOTALLY
if we overtake on the right we are wrong, we can’t be wrong undertaking on the left as well. Or should we spend hours sitting in traffic developing respiratory probs instead.
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