Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Caught red-handed
Glancing out of my window after lunch, I notice a chap sauntering past my house in a manner than can only be described as nonchalant. Craning my neck, I watch as he stops and calmly props an old window, from a house further down the road, outside my house before strolling off.
Having processed that I have *finally* caught one of these ruddy fly tippers in action, I go to the door and watch where he goes. Before I know what is happening, words are coming out of my mouth, rather angry ones...
"Why have you left that outside my house?" I bellow down the road (real classy like)
Inaudible response.
"I said, why have you left that outside my house?"
"It's ok the council will take it" is the reply.
I see red.
"Damn right they will, but only because I have to report it and I'll be reporting YOU for dumping it."
Man's friend seeing the game is up, comes back, mumbles an apology, and retrieves his fly tipping. Out of the corner of my eye, I see curtains twitching across the road. One or two passersby walk a little faster. This middle-aged lady is KICKING off.
Meanwhile, as it's the school holidays, I have my two kids cheering me on. As I stand, arms-crossed, watching Tweedledum and Tweedledee faffing around their white van, my daughter says in tones usually reserved for particularly good moments in Minecraft, "WOW MUM, you're TOUGH. Really TOUGH."
Well, of course, I'm not 'tough'. Just not going to stand for it.
However, as those of you who have read my rubbish-themed diatribes and musings over the years will know, I'm always interested in the WHY. Out of the mouth of Tweedledum was the answer we know is in the head of every dumper, litter bug and dog shit abandoner.
It's ok... the council will take it.
This man, and countless like him convince themselves, even though I KNOW they know what they do is socially wrong and illegal, that it's ok -no harm done, someone (the amorphous mass that is THE COUNCIL) will clear it up.
How do we convince people it's not OK? Fines don't cut it, enforcement is expensive and underfunded and prosecution is time-consuming. How do we stop people convincing themselves that their little bit of environmental crime is excusable?
Because I'm not going to be (un) lucky enough to catch them fly tippers red-handed every day.
Tags for Forum Posts: fly tipping
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Liz on
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Helen?
Re the photos, it's a personal thing not to photograph people and I don't say I would never do it (say for example in repeated fly tipping in the same spot or very dangerous tips) but usually just photographing what they've done in front of the perpetrators is enough 'shaming' for me. And a word in the ear of new neighbours who might genuinely think the system is 'dump it in the street' based on their observations can often have the effect of nipping it in the bud.
As discussed before, I would like to see all estate agents, letting agents and landlords be required to issue instructions on waste disposal to new residents; there was some exploration of this by the council and a local estate agent, Steve Hatch at Castles but not sure what became of it. It may not stop it but no one could claim ignorance of the system. Regular leafletting and outreach by Veolia , especially in areas identified as having significant problems with dumping, should also be required by the council (but they probably forgot to put it in the contract, so that would be up to goodwill of contractor).
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Permalink Reply by LSquared on
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To be honest, I'd rather see the council stop making it so difficult to get rid of waste. I'm pretty sure "just collect all the stuff that people want rid of" without jumping through nine million hoops would be a vote winner. I'd pay extra council tax for that.
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Fix the problem by changing the people? Great, one thing history tells us is that's always worked out well. But while we wait for this Damascene conversion that leads us all to clean-street Utopia, everyone suffers from the minority who don't change.
And it is bloody difficult to get rid of anything other than household waste if you don't have access to a car. Council bulky collections are limited, skips are expensive. As long as flytipping is easier than the alternatives that what you are going to get.
If you really want to fix it, add a disposal tax to all new purchases and use it to pay people for their rubbish. Pay more for well sorted rubbish. That discourages creation of waste in the first place and then discourages dumping - why would you dump if someone will pay you for your waste?
Tell you what though, people dump a lot less rubbish when there isn't any rubbish there already. Which is why this "punish everyone, some of them are guilty" approach is such a failure - leaving our streets messy encourages even more mess.
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"Fix the problem by changing the people?" - Not sure I understand your point that history shows that can't be done. People can and do change their attitudes given time and incentive. I can think of plenty of things that were 'acceptable' when I was a child which are (rightly) wholly unacceptable now. Which is not to say that those things don't exist but the majority of society as a whole is not tolerant of them.
"punish everyone, some of them are guilty" - I'm not clear on this point either. Are you being punished for being required to recycle? Or dispose of your rubbish yourself? Perhaps I've misunderstood this. If you mean enforcement of fines, the usual complaint is that people are not punished enough.
I don't have a car. I can and do get rid of stuff I don't need via freecycle, HOL or via the council and I'm not sure I agree that bulky collection is limited any more.
However, your points about incentives are very good. "Why would you dump if someone will pay you for your waste?" is an excellent point. Paying people for their waste (remember getting money back on glass bottles? Newspaper collections to raise money for schools?) would certainly encourage people. San Francisco offers rebates for responsible recycling. What if every household who recycled were to get a small CT rebate at the end of the year?
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I am being punished because despite sorting, and recycling, and paying registered contractors when I have building waste, I still have to walk through squalid streets every day because a minority don't do all these good things the rest of us do, and ideology says we can't be pragmatic and deal with that because it's somehow pandering to the unworthy.
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So "just collect all the stuff that people want rid of" is an argument for a return to collect everything weekly in one bin and send it to landfill or incineration?
Because the cost of that is very high and EU targets on reducing landfill mean its also impossible. Also the incinerators we use in this country are harmful to health and the reduction in their use is highly desirable.
I thought some of the ideas I had were about targeting the minority but I have to admit I'm also disappointed that despite extensive campaigning and promises from Veolia very little is done to target the worst offenders. Cuts to enforcement make this even harder.
Your ideas on incentivising are excellent and extremely pragmatic. However, enthusiasm for money back in waste schemes is barely to be found in the hallowed halls of local or national government.
And on a personal note, I would feel 'punished' if I was made to stop recycling because a few lazy arses on my street can't be bothered and I have to go back to hauling my glass and card etc to communal recycling facilities.
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Reply to Liz above
So "just collect all the stuff that people want rid of" is an argument for a return to collect everything weekly in one bin and send it to landfill or incineration?
No, that's your interpretation.
Plenty of people want to recycle and that is growing. Why not all the services we currently have, but instead of leaving anything unsorted, take that too, sort it and bill the household? You never know, some of them might eventually pay, and even if they don't the quality of the environment for the rest of us improves significantly.
And provide more local waste disposal facilities so people without cars can get rid of stuff. Let's face it, we have de facto dumps on all the roads now anyway so why not make them managed and controlled.
Personally I would happily pay a grand more council tax if it guaranteed clean streets. The quality of life improvement would be worth it.
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Ok fair enough.
Again another excellent point about localised collection points. I've thought about this too. I would fear permanent points would be a magnet for major abuses and I doubt there would be money in the budget for them to be cleared daily of bulky waste but I've often wondered if there was a way to facilitate Give and Take roadside days (I'd happily man it as a volunteer) to allow people to also help themselves to things people don't want.
At the end of the day, Veolia clear away what's left. Once a month perhaps.
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Interesting.
You feel that you are made to jump through hoops. This is a list of what the council will take for free. Covers pretty much most of the crap that's dumped. The only stuff that won't go via this method is building waste and any self-respecting builder will have the correct mechanisms for removing waste without resorting to wheelie bins full of it down the Harringay Passage.
There's also advice on other tricky stuff
So I think my point still applies. People still think the process is 'hoops' but decent outreach work and information should improve that without the need for extra council tax (which I'd rather was spent on old people's lunch clubs, nursery places and cycle lanes etc.)
I would also like to see the re-instatement of the community collections i.e. days when they "just collect all the stuff that people want rid of". I thought Nilgun was working on that. Reminds me to chase it up.
On Phil's point I can only agree. I recycled when we lived with a small baby in a one bed flat and there was no door step collection, taking bags of bottles and card to the car park hung on the back of a buggy. The council have made it much much simpler now. Pam's neighbours have no excuse for not sorting waste.
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We will not collect:
- Rubble
- Masonry and tiles
- Construction waste
- Waste from house renovations.
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There's your window frame right there.
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Why should they? Because that's what their taxpayers want! Yes, waste has a cost, and it's one that I'm happy to cover in my tax. As I said at the start, I'd pay more tax in return for clean streets.
I do sort out my own mess. It's not MY mess that's the problem, it's that despite paying my tax and sorting my sh*t like a good girl I still have to live with the mess others leave. Perhaps you believe that the tide of filth will eventually shame every last person into falling in line but I don't share your optimism, and even if I did that's a miserable journey to get there.
I am a taxpayer. I'm able bodied, fully employed, I qualify for no means-tested benefits and I have no kids, which means I pay for a whole lot of services I will never use and I don't begrudge that. But I do wish the one shared experience almost all of us have every day - the streets we walk/roll down, the streets that tell us and others what sort of a place this is, what sort of a community this is - was more pleasant. Yes, I would pay more tax in return for that.
(Oh, and I don't have a car. Rather pointless to do all that recycling plastic etc then burn a load of oil to get around isn't it?)
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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on
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Erm, it isn't what this tax payer wants. Why should I subsidise a builder who is being paid for the work, which I would expect to include the costs of correct disposal of the building waste? You can get this wonderful new invention called a skip. We has one when we had the kitchen done, paid for from the dosh I gave to Underpin and Makegood
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