Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!

Fined outside Turnpike Lane?

Walking to the tube today - I saw someone "apprehended" by someone with harringay cctv on their front. They were on a radio checking something or calling through details. Was this the new anti litter org picking up an unsuspecting commuter dropping their cigarette before they went down the station?

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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on January 14, 2017 at 13:23

My argument is that I am opposed to the removal of the liberties of one part of society by another, who feel they hold the moral ground. Smokers are the new gays, if you like. You've read that they have filthy habits here.. I've heard that somewhere before I think.

As a smoker, you know full well that the situation was exacerbated by pushing smokers out on to the streets by banning them in shopping centres. I am saying society should take account of this and provide adequate measures to cope. Does it?

I also feel it would be a better use of commmunity financed time to check whether shoppers/or people in shopping areas are carrying knives rather than waiting for pieces of paper to fall to the ground.

I'm not a smoker, but object to this continual attack on liberties of people. We all know that cigarette butts is not the real issue here, but victimisation of a group of people and a means to bang up LA incomes as easily as possible. It's very shabby.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on January 14, 2017 at 13:38

I don't accept that at all. When I was able to smoke inside I disposed of my fag ends in ashtrays, not on the ground. I don't see why I shouldn't be expected to dispose of them in a simple fashion when I'm outside. Similarly if I'm eating in a cafe I don't throw my unfinished food on the floor of the restaurant.
I also do not accept the question of degree argument. Burglary is a less awful crime than murder but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be punished.
I get a bit sick of some of my fellow smokers claiming victimhood. (I know you're not a smoker Stephen) We're not. We chose to light up so we can damn well dispose of the butts at the end. And as for smokers being the new gays, I'm afraid my jaw dropped at this one. The next time I get attacked in the street for walking hand in hand with a packet of Marlboro I'll let you know.

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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on January 14, 2017 at 13:44

And what did you do when smoking on Hampstead Heath or in Finsbury Park or just out of lazers after a good night? Come on, this holier than thou is a bit rich.

hah, the Marlboro bit made me laugh, but it really is a serious point that you are rubbishing. I hope you haven't forgotten what it is like to be part of an oppressed minority. Try relating that to smokers, subsidised in their 'filthy habit' by 'us'.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on January 14, 2017 at 15:15

Sorry, but I don't think it's in the slightest bit amusing to equate a fine for dropping a fag end with what has happened and still happens to lesbians and gay men.

Permalink Reply by StephenBln on January 14, 2017 at 17:38

And I don't get how you can advocate something so petty and clearly designed to earn as much as possible, whilst victimising a section of society. Especially in an area (quite frankly) so messy as Haringey/Harringay. (My last visit was September 2016). It's just like trying to mow an enormous field with a manual grass cutter. Petty and Pointless.

But perhaps that's indicative of the swing to the right of public opinion in the U.K. I suppose society always needs one group to bash, in order to feel good about itself generally - at the moment it's smokers and others. As I said, change the word 'Smoker' Not Allowed to Jews, Blacks, Irish or Gays and there would be uproar.

I'm disappointed that you can't see that. You know in your heart, that this will do nothing to change the mountains of litter in Haringey, but will certainly cause much anger against the political classes who decide such idiotic schemes.

Permalink Reply by 1vut8bf3om5m9 on January 14, 2017 at 19:48

Sorry, but you are in the wrong StephenBln on this one. The correct issue has already been expressed by Mr Anderson. It's a litter issue not a smoker issue. End of.

By contrast, if you want to say that this is the wrong litter issue (e.g., fly tipping is the real problem not butts) to focus on then fine, but that carries its own discussion.

If the topic were "smoking", now that it has rightfully been banned indoors, I might be more inclined to accept the "civil liberties" argument but for the fact that as so many smokers eventually end up in costly cancer treatments, life support, hospice, that it does become a social question and cost that everyone has to foist to take care of smokers when they are visited by ill health as a result of their habit.

Any doctor can tell you that the most costly medical time for someone on average is the last two weeks of his or her life. So...fine if many smokers want to die a painful death from emphysema--but why should non smoker taxpayers be punished and have to pay for the hospital treatment? Civil liberties are fine when someone else doesn't have to finance them--you can dye your hair blue which is great, since you pay the barber not me or anyone else. The difference is that everyone pays for the smoker dying of cancer in the hospital.

So, keep it a litter issue please.

Permalink Reply by John D on January 14, 2017 at 22:18

Unfortunately, Knavel that argument can be countered by the smoker who points out that he makes a greater contribution to the NHS because of the tax that he pays on his cigarettes, whereas the overeater, for example, doesn't pay tax on the food he eats yet expects the country to look after him when his obesity threatens his health. ( speaking as a recovering smoker here )

Let's deal with the litter question without demonising other people's choice of lifestyle.

Permalink Reply by StephenBln on January 14, 2017 at 22:20

But it isn't a litter issue is it..?

If it were, everyone, those who dump sofas, beds, billys, (Christmas Trees) would also pay, .. Do they?

Do people stand around looking for them..

No, it's just the easy targets who are being made to contribute into the council's bank account.

I could understand, if it were done somewhere without the litter problem Haringey has. Richmond Park or I dunno, Epsom maybe.. Naughty boy, you've thrown down a butt.. But in Haringey? Come on, it's taking the P and pretty shabby at it.

Permalink Reply by JJ B on January 20, 2017 at 11:37

Wow! what spurious nonsense Stephen.

If you want to smoke do so, but don't blow the smoke out near people who don't want it near them. Please do not throw your butts down on the street as it contributes to litter.

It's the same with chewing gum. Bin it when you are done as with all other trash. And dog poo when out walking your poodle.

What is unreasonable about that?