Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Neighbourhood Forum
Out of interest, has anyone got the ball rolling to create a Harringay Neighbourhood Forum in line with the Localism Act? Or perhaps an existing organisation is putting itself forward for the role (as the Highgate Society are doing)? There are a couple of such initiatives west of the tracks, and I'm curious who else is doing so locally.
Ben
Tags for Forum Posts: neighbourhood forum, neighbourhood planning
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Arkady on
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Also, given that local government is fundamentally about sound administration rather than the implementation of radical socioeconomic policy, I’d like to go back to my earlier point: the audit commission fingered Haringey as the worst in London; it’s also one of the most expensive and most complained about. Thus if the opposition have been shown to be a) hardworking and b) excellent at highlighting the Council’s problems and suggesting solutions, it’s hard to see why you wouldn’t give them a chance, instead of rewarding failure* (staggering, contemptible failure). To not do so suggests – to my mind – a certain tribalism and lack of objectivity. I remain open to counter-arguments.
*I am reminded about Einstein’s (perhaps apocryphal) quote concerning the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on
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I can find plenty of examples of failure - we all can. I could provide a list of the worst councils (Haringey is in the middle of most tables I have seen). There are objective measures and in them, Haringey is doing the best that it can and in some respects is very good. I am reminded of this lyric:
A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest:
Govt can put special measures onto failing councils. Are you really claiming that Haringey is a failing council? Why haven't the ConDems acted then? They would love to, I am sure.
I think you are suffering from a deep prejudice. You have decided that Haringey under Labour is awful and nothing will convince you otherwise.
Look at the facts! Either Haringey Labour have little control over most of what happens because central Govt fetter them (which is what I think) or they should all be beheaded simply for being Labour. You are not trying to claim that one Lib Dem Councillor is worth, say, two Labour Councillors are you?
If the Council have little control, it is central govt you should blame. What little changes Labour can affect, the Lib Dems might very well do exactly the same because poverty is poverty however you look at it. Maybe, if you were a Tory, you would sentence the poor to hard Labour but as a Lib Dem, surely you support almost all the main Labour values of social justice etc don't you? So you would do pretty much what Labour are doing in Haringey already, give or take a few Council Houses and 30 minutes free parking (which many oppose).
A real difference between the major parties and the Lib Dems is surely that the Tories and Labour have a lot more experienced people to draw from. Given that most Cllrs are honest people trying to do a difficult job well, would you throw out those with most experience for someone with none because unelected critics do a better job because of their experience picking holes?
I want to understand what the Lib Dem "unique selling point" is and I still don't see one. What Labour value do the Lib Dems oppose?
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(Chris, I don't appear to be able to reply directly to your post of Friday)
I’m afraid that posting a Mumford and Sons cover of the Boxer rather than the S&G original (or even the superlative Dylan cover) robs you of quite a bit of credibility ;-)
It’s also deeply ironic of you to be accusing me of confirmation bias. Again, I’m content to go with the independent audit figures on Haringey’s relative performance. It’s the worst in London, and among the 4th worst in the country. It’s a failed state. Most councils do much better, despite the difficult national context. Given that my view is supported by evidence, and yours appears not to be, I fear you are projecting somewhat when you call me ‘deeply prejudiced’.
So that’s just a question of competence. Having got to know the Lib Dem team quite well, I’m confident they would do better. That’s the key local differentiation for me.
As for underlying values, I accept your assertion that there is a lot of overlap between Lib Dem and Labour on questions of social justice. Wisdom is not the preserve of any one party. I remain a man of the left. What differentiates me from Labour at a national level? Civil liberties, unabashed pro-Europeanism, pluralism and recognition that coalition is the best form or government (as opposed to the tribalism and majoritarianism of much of the Labour party), and liberalism (as opposed to the often-dominant social conservative wing of the Labour party). For what little it’s worth I hope that the electorate deliver the possibility of a Lib-Lab coalition in 2015.
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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Thanks for doing that so quickly, Arkady. Yes, that looks familiar. Below is the paragraph on housebuilding. Maybe I'm missing something but would you really say this is a "fully costed proposal". Be honest now. LibDem activist or not.
Now, maybe it's just me, but I sat in meetings listening to what seemed to be, essentially. soundbite politics. Jam tomorrow funded by notional savings' targets, hedged around by lots of ifs and buts. With no information about what I assume is a major cost - securing cleared land.
Seemed a pig in a poke to me. Not that some equally noisy squealing hasn't come out of Cllr Joe Goldberg's budget sacks.
(Tottenham Hale ward councillor)
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I don’t know Alan, maybe I’m being a bit loose with my terminology, and I’m very far from being a budget expert. It seemed to be as costed (and as aspirational) as any other part of the budget (as you imply). Regardless, the aspirational aspects (i.e. remedying some of the key structural inefficiencies of the council, especially top-heavy management and grossly excessive use of agency staff) seem to me to be an obvious punt in the right direction, as practiced by the Boroughs that are at the top of the Independent Audit league.
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Arkady - I think that when a discussion gets 8 levels deep it seems to break this ning site, so here I resume.
>>independent audit figures on Haringey’s relative performance.
The measure you (and Lynne Featherstone yesterday) quoted was abolished five years ago, and the Govt advice since then was reflected in this comment at the time:
Communities and Local Government Secretary, Eric Pickles said: “In the face of the nation’s £156bn deficit, Central Government needs to stop the costly top-down monitoring that is engulfing councils and start trusting them to do what is right locally.”
Why have their been no figures during the Coalition interregnum to back her up? I can remember when Liverpool were top of the league but it hasn't happened for years - are they still the best? Are you going to take the Coalition advice and trust Haringey?
Lynne also wrote yesterday that we have "vibrant high streets, good transport links, wonderful parks and views – to name but a few! But on the downside, our bin collections, roads and other public services are notoriously bad."
You also wrote >>It’s a failed state.
Why have there been no figures since the Coalition took over to back you up? I can remember when Liverpool were top of the league but it hasn't happened since - are they still the best?
I accuse you two of smearing the borough for political gain. It is a form of "no smoke without fire" prejudice and it harms your reputation for probity. Is performance here at all related to the extremes of inequality do you think?
Take the Tory advice - trust the Council. Can you find any important way in which the Council is good?
>>Having got to know the Lib Dem team quite well, I’m confident they would do better.
but you also wrote: "coalition is the best form of government" and "I hope that the electorate deliver the possibility of a Lib-Lab coalition in 2015" which could lead people to think you are a "woolly liberal".
Are the thousands of civil servants working for the Council incompetent or is it just the management tier? Are the directions given by Cllrs to the Executive at fault? We cannot trust promises, we need strong indications. If by some miracle Cllr Wilson (current leader of the minority of Lib Dem Cllrs in the borough) were to get power, would it be his many qualities that would guarantee us a golden future? He seems like a fine person to me but I guess that even he would say that it was by deploying specific, costed policies that Haringey would be improved.
The truth is, I suspect, that you have no idea of the reality of the situation the Cllrs find themselves in and if you did have, your ideas would change dramatically. With respect, I honestly do not think that you know hardly anything about how a Council works and thus what changes Cllrs can actually bring about and therefore what you are voting for when you long to replace the incumbents. I dont think you can even identify the issues the Council see as drivers, let alone the data about Haringey that they base their conclusions on. If you don't know that, how valid is your view?
As it seems that there is a very strong chance that every Lib Dem Cllr in Haringey will lose their seat and the Lib Dems will thus be wiped out here, why not take on the real challenge that Labour face here? They could sure use a hand. You say you are "of the left" well come on, how can you improve the existing situation? What can you do about it?
Who is most likely to bring about beneficial change here? Labour.
Do the Lib Dems have any realistic chance of getting enough votes to do anything other than what they have been doing here for years? No.
How can you best improve things? By all means criticise whatever deserves it, but, mainly, do something positive that brings about beneficial change.
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Permalink Reply by HoL Site Admin on
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Eh, no, it doesn't 'break' it, there's just a limit to how many indentation levels you can have before the column gets unusably thin. On other threads folks just keep replying to Level 7 - usually that suffices. Simple innit.
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Yeah, right - it is lovely software m8, but in a few respects it sucks. This is one of them.
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I’m going on the latest evidence available. If you have more recent evidence, rather than self-indulgent speculation, do let me know.
“I accuse you two of smearing the borough for political gain”
Not helpful. I accuse you of defending it for political gain. The difference is that I’ve given you independent evidence.
You go on to essentially call me ignorant, based upon nothing as far as I can see. That isn’t helpful either.
You quote a poll that generalises using national polling and fails to take account of any local factors. Ask Mark Pack why that’s such a terrible guide to end-results.
The reason that I don’t trust Labour to do a good job is that they have been in charge for over 40 years in Haringey and it’s the worst council in London. I have no faith in their ability to manage properly or to listen to residents – the latest debacle over concerts in Finsbury Park being an excellent case in point. They don’t care, because they know that evidence-ignoring tribalists will always vote for them. You keep talking around this, and now you are flailing around a tad desperately and getting personal, so I shall step off and let others judge who has made the more convincing case.
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You wrote that these things differentiate you from Labour at a national level:
Civil liberties : the Coalition has harmed them significantly more than Labour.
unabashed pro-Europeanism : Really? Tell the Romainians and the Bulgarians that the Lib dems are not racist and they will smile. I am ashamed at my country when it appears to hate on foreigners.
pluralism : not sure what this means - do you mean "coalition" or "diversity"?
recognition that coalition is the best form or government (as opposed to the tribalism and majoritarianism of much of the Labour party) : nobody voted for coalition and nobody wants it here, so please accept that, unless you can find a measure that this coalition is the best at governing the UK, you are wrong.
liberalism (as opposed to the often-dominant social conservative wing of the Labour party): we have never had liberalism in the sense you probably mean it. We don't have it now and even you won't claim that we will have it in future so, however nice it might sound in theory (maybe like socialism) it isnt going to happen because people actively vote it down.
Supporting a party that cannot win and promises a pipe-dream is a displacement activity at best. I think you are wasting your vote. The Lib Dems are not going to gain power, not here in Harney, not in London and not in the UK.
There is lots that is wrong with them as with all the parties and you cannot cherry pick - you should support the party that has the best chance of doing the best, not cling to one that will never deliver. When you vote Labour you will get a lot of stuff you don't agree with but it isnt about you, its about the basic principles and values. They all fail to live up to them, but they all try to stick to their principles. There is a strong view that says that these values and principles are not made up in smoke-filled rooms, but come directly from the people themselves, from us. They are what is really at stake here, the people themselves. Our future.
We are culturally diverse - that I see as our greatest strength. The modern world is a connected place full of easy access to a big range of different ways of being and that is a wealth in itself. That is why there is less polarisation - its like the number of TV Channels we now have -gone are the days when everyone shared the common experience of regularly watching the same show in their tens of millions, we have to take account of people who are different from us, who have different preferences, ideas, standards and opinions. We used to treat everyone as if they were all white and middle class, or poor and working class or upper class. Now that has gone the way of the dinosaur we can achieve a more even-handed and thus genuine humanity.
Please accept that most of us who vote see our values and principles reflected in Labour aspirations, that is why Labour gain electoral success and why we are happy to live around here. We are not people who identify with the rich, the aristocracy, the industrialists, the corporates, the bankers, the right wing generally. We are the majority - working people. Labour is the party of the working person who cares for the disadvantaged enough to share the wealth around.
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Easy! How much detail can you stand? We are the party with a strong intellectual tradition, and that means lots of words!
Here are our values, from: http://www.labour.org.uk/what_is_the_labour_party
• social justice
• strong community and strong values
• reward for hard work
• decency
• rights matched by responsibilities
Lovely, aren't they? What's not to like?
Here is an easier-to-read elaboration of our principles - its all there on Google and our website if you want chapter and verse.
You might give examples where we fail to live up to them (as all parties do) but let us just assume that, if you oppose them, you have your reasons, shall we? What are your party's principles and values?
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