Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Litter and parenting
Where do litterbugs come from?
Yesterday walking down Oakfield Road I saw a mother and son coming in the opposite direction and the boy just tossed some kind of wrapping by a tree in the pavement. I watched this action and must have followed the paper descending to the ground. I think the mother must have seen me looking and she told the boy to pick it up straight away and for good measure she said, you know you don't do that sort of thing. I almost said to the mother, well done!
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Contrast this with the experience I had in Paddington Station some years ago when I was almost assaulted over litter by a feral parent. While waiting in a queue to buy a ticket, a boy picked up a brochure from a rack and just threw it on the floor. A woman on her way out, swooped down, picked it up and put it back in the rack and carried on, in a non-verbal critique of the child's conduct, in plain view of the father, who was clearly failing in his duty.
It was either the boy or the father who then took the pamplet out of the rack again and threw it on the floor again. Standing just behind the father, and having weighed up the situation, I gently suggested to the father that "someone is going to have to pick that up", meaning a cleaner.
Feral father than went into fight-mode, clenching his fists, weaving from side to side and shouting "shut up, shut up, shut up". Even though the father was significantly shorter than me, I had no wish to engage in a fight over a piece of paper, so I said evenly "ok", having made my point.
Having seen the appalling example set by the parent, that boy is likely to be a life-long litterer and probably pass his conduct on to any progeny.
Should parents not be more accountable for the conduct of their offspring?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Old-Age-Emporium(OAE) on
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Having encountered something of this kind in the queue in Harringay Post Office the other day, I agree it's time LBH launched its Course for Feral Parents, "Parenting Your Litter".
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Permalink Reply by JulieB on
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I've always been strict on a non-littering policy with my children, and their school also teach them to use bins and recycle. They now, very helpfully, trot out to our recycle bin or food bin without me asking them to.
There was a survey, by someone like keep Britain tidy, which asked schools and local groups to go round picking up litter in the streets/parks around their local area and recording what type of litter was the most 'popular'. I think they've done it twice and both times dropped McDonalds wrappers/boxes came out top.
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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It would be Chicken & Chips boxes around here.
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
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When I was a lad, there used to be such things as "deposits" on "bottles" of Coca Cola and Fanta. Consequently, few were dropped and those that were dropped, were normally collected later by others seeking the deposit. What a sensible arrangement. Now we have throwaway packaging because its cheaper.
Despite what supermarkets might say publicly about their green policies on plastic bags, internally they favour issuing their own plastic bags because of one reason: it speeds through-put at the check-out.
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Permalink Reply by Justin Guest on
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I was walking up GL a year or so ago, and I was just shy of the Salisbury on that side of the road, when out of the door of one of the shops came a hand wanging a bundle of thick plastic ties used to secure large packages into the road. I was not impressed, so I picked it up, opened the door and wanged it back in, suggesting that the shop owner (whose hand said bundle came from) should find a bin. It was back on the street in seconds. Sometimes I am not sure we will win this battle!
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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A phone-camera snap might have been useful, Justin. Shaming may be effective - especially if a trader thinks it can cost them customers - or perhaps a fine.
In any case, it would be interesting to spot and photo such indicators of the "mental maps" people appear to use to decide what is 'within' their area of responsibility and what is "outside". I've often found these physical separations hard to understand. For example, people who complain about dirty streets while leaving their own litter and plastic bags on the street. Or traders who know that rubbish in their shop or restaurant will put off customers; but don't seem to make the same connection about the stinking bags of waste on the pavement outside.
The excellent Wellcome Trust exhibition Dirt: the filthy reality of everyday life (unfortunately now ended) explored some of these complexities. How different cultures at different places and times think about tidiness and cleanliness; health and purity. And how different societies manage - or frequently fail to manage - human beings' waste products. I was particular struck by the section on the 17th Century Dutch domestic battle with dirt. One painting showed servants busy on already spotless and glistening floor tiles.
Many people in our society seem to take for granted that almost invisible "servants" will always be coming round to clean things up. (The film Dirty Pretty Things made a similar point.) So, for example, we didn't fully grasp the essential work done by park staff until Government cuts meant there were far fewer of them.
Of course, it's vital to have public education and aim for behaviour change. (Although first you need to observe and try to understand behaviour.) Over the years, Haringey has often failed to engage effectively on these issues with large numbers of residents. Even worse, where creative and successful work has been done, there is often no record of what was tried and how it worked. In other words, the lack of a culture of learning means that experiments were not properly recorded and learned from. So as staff numbers shrink and experienced people leave, the knowledge goes with them.
(Labour councillor Tottenham Hale)
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Alan I read with interest what you say about rubbish.
There do exist commercial fly-tippers etc.
But street litter is not dropped by a committee or a policy.
It's dropped by individuals who fail to take responsibility for their actions.
I'd also to hear your views about the learned nature of littering.
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Permalink Reply by Liz on
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But Clive, that is exactly what Alan is talking about. In our perambulations, camera in hand, across East Haringey, which we then record on our flickr pages, we both speculate as to the motivations of people who litter.
There is sometimes an odd sense of 'tidyness' about some litterers: these are the ones who carefully pop their cans and paper down the backs of utility cabinets, balance them on walls or tuck them down the side of planters. A little bit of them knows what they are doing is wrong and they hope by being 'tidy', they offend less (perhaps there's a distant memory of a mum or dad telling them to put it in the bin).
There's the fervent believers in the Haringey litter gods who must be propitiated with frequent offerings which are hungrily accepted by their purple garbed priests who spirit it away. Like many religions, this has been learned at the knee of their parents and they find it difficult to relinquish their faith.
Then there are the litterers for whom littering is a civil liberties issue. You don't have the right to tell them what to do with their lives, including what they do with their litter. These are dangerous folk as they will be inclined to defend their personal liberty to the point of punching you on the nose. These people may be reacting against all the nannies trying to get them to behave.
Let us not forget the sweet old ladies who carefully sweep their front step and garden every morning and then open the front gate and whoosh it all into the street. These are the folk of whom Alan speaks, for whom responsibility for their environmental cleanliness stops most categorically at the garden gate. Where they learned such bad behaviour can only be surmised as most of their parents have gone to the litter gods in the sky.
The gentleman you observed belongs to the group who believe they are keeping people in employment by spreading the litter far and wide. This is quite a large group and also ones that tend to defend other people's employment to clean up after them with fists and agression. Worker's rights mean a lot to them...I guess they believe that the cleaners actually enjoy cleaning up and would be bored and resentful if they had nothing to do.
There is the bone idle litterer. These are the ones who can see a litter bin within a stride but can't be arsed to go one step out of their way to deposit their waste. Many smokers fall into this category as they flick their ends out of shop doorways, into the gutter or out of car windows. There is a tidier sub-section that will stub it out but usually in plant pots and planters. You can also file many gum chewers into this category. I imagine both the workers rights and the bone idle brigade expected their parents to put their toys away.
Then there's the car diners. These are folks who will park up, buy a fast food delicacy from the many fine establishments in the area, return to their car, fill up on grease and carbs then pile the packaging into the gutter before driving off...because obviously they don't want the smelly stuff in the car. These folk probably never cleared a table in their life.
There's the litter denier. These are the ones that have two excuses for themselves: "my one bottle/can/wrapper won't hurt as there is a bag awaiting collection anyway" or "I would use a bin but they are too manky/full/hard to use" but they would not see themselves as litter bugs. Oh no! 'Not the one more won't hurt' group.
Don't forget the inebriated. After 6 lagers for a 5er, I doubt you could see the bin, let alone navigate your way to it.
There may be other types (do detail below if you can think of any) but as Alan says, failure to recognise and try to change people's behaviour patterns for the better, means that the problem continues unabated. You make a good point about deposits on bottles etc. There is no political will to make this happen but it would help, ditto plastic bag taxes and also more engagement with small fast food outlets to help clean up (McDonalds have come some way towards acknowledging their need to be pro-active but around here it is the ubiquitous chicken boxes that are a big problem).
Public education like the campaigns in the 70s, punchier slogans, never mind tidy, keep Britain beautiful, work from companies on less packaging and more incentives for people to recycle it and some cunning to try and work out how to steer people into more responsible behaviour is needed. Of course, parents should be held responsible but most people do not like to be challenged about bad behaviour, they cover embarrassment with agression. We need to be more inventive and creative in how we get people to be more responsible.
p.s. Can I join Maggie (on another thread) in a plea not to refer to people as 'feral' - it is crude language and has become a trifle fashionable in the right wing press. The man has hardly stepped out of society and returned to a wild state, just because he has a problem with being challenged over his child's poor behaviour.
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Litterary Readers will be sorry to learn that, due to cuts budgetary readjustments, LBH has been forced to abandon plans for its Course for Feral Parents: "Parenting Your Litter". Feral cubs should feel free to carry on as heretofore.
Meanwhile, not since I studied Theophrastus's 'Characters' for my Greek A-Level in 1959 have I admired such a succession of thumbnail sketches of those with whom we are compelled to share our Agora as we find in Liz's Litterbugs (supra). Ms Ixer is to be congratulated, if not recompensed. In the decades around 300BC, when he headed Aristotle's Athenian Lyceum, Theophrastus's lectures regularly attracted audiences of 2,000+ students of all ages. Pity we closed Harringay Arena.
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*acknowledges the ghostly applause of a long gone audience with a little bow and a hint of a smile*
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Permalink Reply by John D on
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There were 7000 polloi in the Alexandra Palace Great Hall last Sunday evening for "Songs of Praise" . Stick that up your Theophrastus and smoke it :-)
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