Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Big savings needed in Haringey. Where should the savings come from?
Now the party's truly over. I've been talking for a while now about the need for local authorities to save something like 20-25% from their budgets. This evening Panorama took up the theme. It's now out there. For Haringey that'll mean savings of something like £80-100m in savings. That's huge! We're facing the biggest cuts since the 1970s. Handled badly, it will be an emergency.
So what do we think? What would we choose? We can sit back and let the Council take decisions or we can share the responsibility and contribute our views. Probably about as exciting as doing your expenses, but something we should probably be doing.
Here's how Haringey's spending is split right now:
So discuss. For more details on Haringey's finances, see this area on their website.
Some rules. Only constructive discussion allowed. If you want to party-politic or bash the Council, please go to another discussion. I'm opening this discussion for constructive discussion only. Break those rules and ya get nuked!
So what do we think? What would we choose? We can sit back and let the Council take decisions or we can share the responsibility and contribute our views. Probably about as exciting as doing your expenses, but something we should probably be doing.
Here's how Haringey's spending is split right now:
So discuss. For more details on Haringey's finances, see this area on their website.
Some rules. Only constructive discussion allowed. If you want to party-politic or bash the Council, please go to another discussion. I'm opening this discussion for constructive discussion only. Break those rules and ya get nuked!
Tags for Forum Posts: cuts, public spending cuts
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
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If this is not meant facetiously, it's an interesting question. This gets to the heart of what the council is for: is the prime purpose of councils to provide service to the public or to provide and maintain employment? Which should come first?
This question comes up in other areas of public policy, especially defence procurement such as Trident, Eurofighter, aircraft carriers (and other large scale weapons production).
Is the prime purpose of these hugely expensive programmes, to defend the country or to keep people in employment? It does seem that the main reason for keeping these programmes going is to stop people being laid off, even if any objective need for their work has faded.
It seems to me that the variability in the quality of council staff is something that the council is reluctant to acknowledge, let alone do anything about.
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Permalink Reply by pamish on
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It was not a facetious question.
Thinking of jobs for the less qualified - the 50+% of school leavers who dont go to University at 18, the 50% of those who do but who drop out in their first year, the 70% who dont get the crucial four A-C GCSE's, or those who do who dont want to go on to sixth form, to start with - getting a job with the Council is traditionally seen as a real catch. They can start with a relatively low-level office job and hope to get experience and skills which will enable them to progress.
So yes, the council must recognise this. I'd hate to have a job in personnel, with the responsibilty of making sure all employees are trained and developed to their full potential all the time.
We end up with tick-boxes, annual appraisals, targets. But honesty - ? Any LBH employees out there, who have not stopped reading because I'm being so patronising?
Is it better to keep on people working at half speed, than to have them out there hustling, or on the dole? (A question we ask all the time in college...)
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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One of the more nauseating comments I read about the ascendancy of the new Thatcherites is how this will once again offer great opportunities for artists and playwrights.
Perhaps, instead we need to reread and restage some of the old plays. Because your comment, Pam, brought to mind Caryl Churchill's Top Girls from 1982. Which I saw as not just about gender politics - which it was - but posing questions about the place in our society for young women (and men?) who are not 'high achievers', or 'gifted and talented'.
These questions are now far sharper in our globalised, Dirty-Pretty-Things, Blairite world. Many more people are expected to survive in the low wage; low skill; casual; cash-in-hand economy.
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Permalink Reply by Maddy on
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This is such an indictment of the current state of education that I can hardly bear to read it. But that's not what we're discussing here, so I'll shut up.
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Why an indictment Maddy? Because, isn't this at least linked to the issues we're discussing?
Many of the "efficiency" savings I've seen over the years have led to wage-cuts, lay-offs, part-time or casual working for the already low-paid. Or export of their jobs to other countries. Or replacement of people by machines - like the supermarket check-outs discussed on another thread.
So please don't shut-up if you have something interesting and constructive to offer. Isn't that the aim of such a brainstorming session?
(Tottenham Hale ward councillor)
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Sorry, was replying to Pamish's point, but because of the layout it doesn't look that way.
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In keeping with this thread's subject, I will just point out that a course that used to have 30 hours a week of class time (early 90s i believe), now has 14 hours. We are supposed to produce the same level of skills and knowledge in our 'customers'. I guess we must do, because as many people pass...
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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on
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As you can see by reading through this thread, even here there are those already calling for cuts in children's services.. I've found that generally they are those that don't have to bring up children on smaller incomes themselves..
..and anyway there are those who think you shouldn't 'cut' your way out of a crisis like this..
Nobody has mentioned the real problem of the deficit.. The UK doesn't produce enough of anything, apart from stars in the music industry (a failing industry) or equity fund managers.. If there was more being produced, earning money, taxes - the deficit wouldn't be so large- but you all seem to have accepted the status quo..
What IMHO needs to be done in the long term is to skill up kids in the trades as well as equip them with languages.. (at least one other European as well as something asian) all done at school .. so no cuts please!!
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Permalink Reply by John D on
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There's not much point in speculating about cutting the cost of refuse collection when it currently accounts for only 4.5% and and the Council needs to save 20-25%. Even if there were no rubbish collections at all the saving would be peanuts compared to the overall budget.
Maybe we need to think the unthinkable and look at the expenditure on Children and Young People and Adult Social Care.
Maybe the answer is for the Council to tell all departmental managers that their budgets have been cut by 25% and to go ahead and manage.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on
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Hugh kicked this off with his immortal words:
" We can sit back and let the Council take decisions or we can share the responsibility and contribute our views"
De-constructing this reminds me of the 'why keep a dog and bark yourself' approach.
Maybe to suggest effective cuts requires requires us to have:
a) A history of involvement - lived here for a while, or have that experience elsewhere, or at least are aware of the details of the past so as not to repeat it's mistakes.
b) A multi-cultural approach that takes account of the wide variety of views and pressures on us all, with no particular political affinity.
c) A good head for figures and demonstrable experience in steering big budgets effectively.
d) A knowledge of what is likely to work in a large organisation.
e) Excellent communication skills
f) Plenty of time to devote to this topic
This rules out most of us doesn't it?
In other words, surely the best people to advise are the Haringey civil servants we already pay, so shouldn't we call on them to equip and guide us? Should Hugh not have asked:
What do we need to make our views effective?
Also, doesn't 'asking for views' undermine local councillors, making them irrelevant? Should we not consider having a 'virtual councillor' for the ward?
I could go on but the main point is, if we want to cut the £1bn by £100m why not concentrate on how we can work with the Borough rather than in spite of it.
Just my tuppence worth...
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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Good points Chris, but I intended no suggestion that we should work in spite of the Council. The whole idea is to work with them.
I think there are a number of views of how democracy works. You can take the view that it functions by voting once every few years and leaving elected members to get on with it OR you can decide that in addition to voting, you'll continue to contribute time and thought for the public good.
It goes without saying that there are few people who take the second view at any level. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be however. Contributing to a conversation undermines no-one. It's where the decision-making powers lie that counts.
If people were to contribute views to budgeting, I don't think the ask would be to make a professionally calibrated judgement. It could be as simple as indicating priorities or, for some with the time and skills, getting more deeply involved.
In my view, people should most certainly get involved. Democracy and public services will never work without citizens staying involved alongside elected representatives and officers. Now, more than ever, is the time for people to get involved.
(Steps down from soap-box. Exits page right.)
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Permalink Reply by Ruth on
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I dont know how much exactly spent on translation services but I believe its a fair old whack and we have to start somewhere.
I think some of that money could be diverted into more ESOL teaching (education is important) and trying to 'ween' people off relying on translations of things such as the People magazine and also at doctors surgeries when translators are sometimes called in. If people are Haringey residents, then they'd be better off with more lEnglish anguage skills and not relying on translations. This will also assist community cohesion.
And how about raising more money but actually fining some of the litter louts? Or slapping community service on them so they have to clean the streets?
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