Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
St Ann's LTN AKA Pedestrian ONLY Nightmare
Just gone through in detail the consultation associated with Low Traffic Neighbourhoods. The word Low seems to be a euphemism, no traffic neighbourhood seems to be the order of the day.
I do not understand where the council officers get their data. They state that the majority of residents do not own or use a car. So why is it so difficult to park even if you have a parking permit for the CPZ?
I have a disabled daughter and a wife with ME/Chronic fatigue and there will be no allowances for disabled access in either option. Roads are being shut to traffic, the surrounding area will be grid locked at times impacting the buses. With many of the roads having almost only one way in, how do they get deliveries and the refuse lorries in and around the area. The roads are too narrow for even a 7.5 tonne truck to turn around in. It will be difficult for cars to do three point turns.
I have lived in London since 1979, and in the borough since 1988 and in the St Ann's area since 1997. We have loved it. We raised both our children in the area and our disabled daughter (an adult now) has a support system in place.
We have asked for simple measures to make the roads safer without serious disruption to traffic flow. simple speed and weight limit enforcement would make a huge difference, but the council solution is an LTN which will drive a local garage out of business and make driving around the area almost impossible.
I am not in a minority of one, just come round the area and count the number of parked cars.
If this proposal goes through, I will have to take the early retirement I cannot afford and move away from the city I love.
Tags for Forum Posts: low traffic neighbourhoods, st anns ltn, traffic
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by AndrewAW1 on
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The telematics or "black-box" data shows the detail of a specific journey. Clarendon Rd to Tottenham wouldn't count as a through journey as it originated in the LTN.
I agree that there was a fair bit of disruption (although I seem to remember that the TFL data suggested that it wasn't as bad as it felt). The point is that it was less than half that got shunted to "adjacent" roads, these things do cause some traffic to disappear.
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I understand your point about telemetrics (and Clarendon Road), but “local” as opposed to “through” traffic always seems highly-debatable to me — to use another example, what would Hermitage Road to Wood Green (both outside St Ann’s) count as? “Through” for St Ann’s, “local” for Harringay? Is it really more ecologically friendly to insist on a vehicle going via St Ann’s, Seven Sisters, Tottenham High Road, West Green and Green Lanes (or St Ann’s, Harringay Road and Green Lanes) at a snail’s pace for such a journey and burning more petrol or diesel?
A propos buses: TfL’s data averaged journey times, but the time-specific data showed (as I remember it) severe delays in peak hours — obviously when most people travel — and I was actually on several of the buses that got turned back before completing their journeys. If only half the displaced traffic was able to use adjacent roads, where did the rest go? Is the implication that it’s OK if half the traffic ends up in another borough, as somebody else’s problem?
The modelling and experience of the Crouch End experiment showed that vehicles were simply expected to use the nearest alternative, which in that case — not much to anyone on the Ladder’s taste — meant Wightman Road. If traffic is to be forever shunted eastwards to keep it out of Harringay, where does it end up once the A10’s at capacity?!
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Ultimately the hope is that some people will give up driving. I can't remember the stats but a huge number of journeys are very short, easily replaced with walking, cycling or scootering for most.
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Of course public transport provision cost, frequency, comfort all need to be worked on too. And that is where we have major failures in that it is individaul boroughs implementing CPZs, LTNs and the like. When what we need is overall radical overhaul in favour of less car use and better pubilc transport.
For example the frequency of trains on the Overground stopping at Bruce Grove has barely increased since passing into TFL hands.
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I’d completely echo your point on public transport. I don’t know about Bruce Grove, but TfL have been taking an axe to central London buses in the last two years, partly because of their own failure to get to grips with Uber and the gigantic increase in minicabs that has both clogged up roads and undermined public transport. As someone else commented, councils such as ours are adept at using the stick (road closures) but useless at finding a carrot (much better public transport). Admittedly, Haringey can’t alter the latter on its own, but that’s why a holistic approach across all boroughs and involving TfL (and the Dept of Transport) is needed. If people see public transport as safe, frequent and cheap, they might start to use cars less.
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Permalink Reply by Mattie on
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Exactly. Fewer cars on the road would make a huge difference all round.
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Permalink Reply by JulieB on
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I totally agree with you.
One of the main complaints when GLATS was happening was the piecemeal actions taken by the council which meant traffic was displaced onto other surrounding roads, especially ladder roads. GLATS offered a more holistic view of our area. I can't see how LTNs are anything other than yet more piecemeal closures. But funding has been provided for them so some now see them as the best solution.
I would very much support Blue Badge holders being exempted from the LTN camera fines. As someone who has had to fight for years for the support my son needs (although not for a blue badge as he is not eligible), I totally understand walking/cycling/public transport is not an option for some people.
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Thank you !
at last someone understands !!
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Good to hear things from your point of view as the discussion often feels one sided. I understand and appreciate the limitations you have with a disabled daughter and a wife with ME. That said, I have lived on St Ann’s road since 1997 and have personally witness the ever increasing levels of traffic and frightening levels of speeding/dangerous driving. I do not own a car so have no option but to walk, cycle or take public transport. There are many people in my position. Sadly, I feel in general, people rarely think about our needs; the needs of the car-less, the less powerful, the elderly, the young families with children, in an ever growing car dominated society. I believe the introduction of an LTN will make the roads safer and more pleasant for us all. I have witnessed many elderly people and parents with young children struggling to cross the road and walk safely on St Ann’s road especially when taking their children to the many schools and hospital or medical centres in the area. I walked and cycled to school. Unfortunately, it is not an easy or pleasant option these days. What about the levels of traffic and pollution? i think it is totally unacceptable. I absolutely love living here but feel the traffic situation is making some roads very frightening and unpleasant to walk on. Where do we draw the line? We simply cannot continue with the current status quo -something must change. I feel we should 100% support the council by encouraging people who can walk and cycle to do so, rather than drive, and to protect the families that need to drive. An LTN can make our roads safer, healthier, more welcoming and overall pleasant for us all. It takes some will and a change of mindset but I think the successes of the LTNs in neighbouring boroughs prove we too could be enjoying the benefits and be thinking why didn’t we do this sooner?
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Karen — Don’t you think this LTN will make your position even worse, as St Ann’s Road is one of the boundary roads that will have to take the extra traffic apparently to be displaced from within the area? Even if Black Boy Lane isn’t closed to normal traffic (and far worse if it is), the whole idea is to shove vehicles onto St Ann’s and West Green roads, along with yet further increases on the already jammed and polluted Green Lanes and Seven Sisters Roads. Two extra crossings will slow some traffic on St Ann’s Road, but do nothing for the extra pollution caused by drivers having to take a longer way round to get to the same place as before. As a fellow non-driver I also walk in the area, but the current fantastically quiet back roads (Conway, Clarendon, Cranleigh, etc) already offer numerous peaceful ways to avoid traffic, pollution and manic cyclists on pavements if you’re going to, say, The Laurels or the hospital site — you just have to watch out for Minis with L plates backing round a corner! It isn’t broke, so why try to fix it?
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To be honest I don’t think so. For me personally, I think the system is completely broken. I am curious. What are your thoughts on speeding, lawless driving and the levels of air pollution? Are you happy with the current situation? In it’s essence, once an LTN and is put in place it encourages people to drive less, so over time there is less traffic everywhere as more people decide to walk to get their milk for example, rather than drive. It is all about a mindset change for me, where the car is not King and does not take up 80% of the road space be it with two lane traffic, parking on either side of the road etc. Areas with LTNs in place you see children cycling and scooting around, while parents can go shopping, sit around having a cuppa or a pint and the elderly and those with with mobility issues can move around without constant worry about being run-over. It is great seeing people out and about without tons of cars billowing out toxic fumes. Remember when a ban on smoking was introduced in bars and restaurants and everyone was up in arms? now no one would ever dream of smoking in a pub. It was a brilliant initiative which we have all benefitted from!
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Karen — I wouldn’t disagree about reducing pollution, speeding and lawless driving; as a pedestrian I care about all three. My points are: a) St Ann’s is already generally quiet — for example, until fairly recently I could regularly see an instructor teaching groups of young children on cycles about road safety in my road and I made the point about driving schools above; b) I think your road will suffer from the LTN because displaced traffic will use it more, not less, making it more dangerous and polluted; c) there is no suggestion that the council is leading the way by spending real money on significant changes such as electric vehicles and charging points, but choosing instead to spend peanuts on plant pots to block roads.
Harringay suffers from geography (the funnelling effect of the railway line barrier) and external traffic problems (Green Lanes as an over-used, highly-congested north/south conduit); so I’d suggest that road closures in an existing low traffic area, with barriers primarily designed to block east/west travel, is not a sensible priority in reducing traffic across the borough and will simply exacerbate existing problems on adjacent roads without solving any actual problem.
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