Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
St Ann's LTN AKA Pedestrian ONLY Nightmare
Just gone through in detail the consultation associated with Low Traffic Neighbourhoods. The word Low seems to be a euphemism, no traffic neighbourhood seems to be the order of the day.
I do not understand where the council officers get their data. They state that the majority of residents do not own or use a car. So why is it so difficult to park even if you have a parking permit for the CPZ?
I have a disabled daughter and a wife with ME/Chronic fatigue and there will be no allowances for disabled access in either option. Roads are being shut to traffic, the surrounding area will be grid locked at times impacting the buses. With many of the roads having almost only one way in, how do they get deliveries and the refuse lorries in and around the area. The roads are too narrow for even a 7.5 tonne truck to turn around in. It will be difficult for cars to do three point turns.
I have lived in London since 1979, and in the borough since 1988 and in the St Ann's area since 1997. We have loved it. We raised both our children in the area and our disabled daughter (an adult now) has a support system in place.
We have asked for simple measures to make the roads safer without serious disruption to traffic flow. simple speed and weight limit enforcement would make a huge difference, but the council solution is an LTN which will drive a local garage out of business and make driving around the area almost impossible.
I am not in a minority of one, just come round the area and count the number of parked cars.
If this proposal goes through, I will have to take the early retirement I cannot afford and move away from the city I love.
Tags for Forum Posts: low traffic neighbourhoods, st anns ltn, traffic
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by ChestnutsGary on
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No, not a minute or two... To access West Green Road from the southern section of the LTN, would require a trip around an increasingly congested Seven Sisters Road or Green Lanes. Try 20 minutes of idling emissions. Bad news for those who love near the main roads...
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Well that's part of the point. The LTN isn't just intended to cut out rat-running, it's also intended to dissuade people doing short car journeys. If you're driving for an hour then those extra couple of minutes on your journey won't make much difference. If you're driving for five minutes then they will.
This obviously then leads into the hope that overall traffic levels, not just those in the LTN, will fall.
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Permalink Reply by JulieB on
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You are not alone, I live in the St Ann's LTN area and I am against these proposals for very similar reasons to you. I attended a drop in at St Ann's library last weekend which was interesting. The latest survey is still open, I think it closes on the 15th or 17th September so not for much longer. There was also a separate survey for disabled residents/carers but I believe that has closed already.
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I have reviewed the various replies. I have also had a discussion with a councillor. These do not align with the paperwork issued.
I draw your attention to page four of the booklet issued:
"Model Filters (trial)
These are points in the road that prevent motor vehicles from passing through, but allow walking, cycling and wheeling. The locations of the model filters differ in Option A and B. Model filters will either be physical or the road will be left open for emergency access and may be enforced by cameras
As we are proposing a trial scheme, filters will consist of planters and/or bollards placed in the road. Emergency Access only modal filters also provide a through route for emergency services"
The above is absolutely clear in that the roads will be blocked off to motor traffic. If you look into the details, access to every house, or from every house will be possible. However getting back the other way is the issue. If one end of the road is blocked to motor vehicles then you will have to turn around to get out, Some of these roads with parked cars both sides are very narrow. It would be difficult for a family size car to turn around and a delivery lorry would not be able to negotiate the return journey.
The point about the census is flawed. Haringey has data related to the number of parking permits issued. Cars with disabled persons do not need a permit and may not bother with a Companion Badge.
As I said, walk around the area, it is a CPZ and look at the number of cars parked in the street. In addition if it is 40% that is still a huge number of residents that are impacted.
I use public transport, but using public transport for all purposes is not practical and going anywhere that is not into Central London has its challenges. I also fear for my family on the pavements as cycle behaviour continues to deteriorate. Some years ago my wife and daughter were struct down by a cyclist approaching a junction on the wrong side of the road, going the wrong way up that one way street. Both my wife and Daughter were knocked flying and onto the ground. The cyclist remounted, turned to them and swore at them. My wife was bruised from shoulder to ankle from the fall.
If the letter of the booklet is followed, my families lifestyle will be completely restricted and it will no longer be worth living in the area. There may be a similar issue with hundreds of car owners in the area.
If the paperwork is revised in line with the discussion with the Councillor, then we are talking about a completely different type of impact that could be to the benefit of residents. However driving a viable business out of business because there is no full access for their customers would be an unacceptable price to pay and that matter needs to be resolved.
The one element that will not change is the SCHOOL RUN. This frequently has bizarre driving behaviour that is a menace to all other road users. I have seen it, parking restrictions are ignored, cars are double parked, and the cars move off without any suitable checking.
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Which specific streets are you concerned about? I'm struggling to see a large number of streets restricted in the way you describe.
Can you also explain why the local garage will go out of business, I can't really see how the two are linked. Cars will still all be able to get to the garage.
If the plans are implemented then the school run will almost certainly change. Lots of the schools will be having school streets implemented which will mean that cars (other than residents) can't drive or park on them during school start and finish times. These will be camera enforced as well (I actually recently got fined myself after I left the office early one day and drove through one of the school streets near my work).
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In each option there are 8 filters.
My comments will apply to sections of the roads near the end for each filter. If you do not live in those streets and do not sympathise with the implications being discussed, would that make you selfish or self centred.
So here are the roads impacted:
Option A:
All Clarendon Road
Woodlands Park Road between Cranleigh Road and Conway road, although Woodlands park road is the widest road in the St Ann's area.
Avenue Road between Roslyn Road and Newsam Ave
Black Boy Lane if you want to avoid a detour through Clarence Road, Clinton Road and Station Cres and back down Clarence Road.
The filter end of Culvert Road.
All vehicles travelling south down Cornwall Road will then do north up Black Boy Lane
Oulton Road between Cissbury Rd and South Grove.
Option B:
Black Boy Lane end of Cranleigh Road
Etherly Rd between Conway Road and Black Boy Lane. This is a very narrow road with a right angled turn.
Etherly Road between Conway Road and Cranleigh Road
Woodlands Park Road between Cranleigh Road and Conway road, again
Clarendon road, again
Falmer Road which is also a very narrow road with a right angle bend.
Black Boy Lane would be subject to the overspill traffic from all the other roads.
In both options the S1 section will create passenger drop off in West Green Road for West Green school. The school run is bad enough already.
Now, I am assuming that everyone is aware of the chemical phenomena of Dispersion. Also the weather phenomena called wind. If all this traffic that no longer goes through the LTN, now goes around the LTN, and drives additional mileage as a result, where do the fumes from these vehicles go?
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Thanks for the detailed response.
Quite a few of those are probably short enough to reverse out of but I agree that some like Clarendon Road could be an issue (I have a vague memory that there's a spot you could turn there but obviously issues for lorries). There was talk about creating turning spots where parking would be suspended by the filters I believe.
I agree that the one way sections do create some lengthy exits from the scheme. I don't think that the one way routes are required as well as the filters and when I responded to the scheme I made that point.
I'd hope that on top of the S1 section they'd also have enforcement on West Green Road to stop parking there.
The theory is that not all of the traffic that goes through the LTN will go round, some will decide to go elsewhere (e.g. stay on the A10) and some will decide not to bother and either combine journeys or use a different method of transport. This "traffic evaporation" is quite well documented and was seen when Wightman Rd was closed.
But, this is why this is a trial, to see what really does happen to the traffic and the pollution levels and the rest of it.
I'd encourage you to engage with the consultation with your concerns. There may be some fine tuning of the filters to avoid those dead ends or removal of the one way streets for instance.
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Why are cars being used to shuttle children to and from school any way?
When I was in primary school most children walked to and from school! This would also change teh nature of our neighbourhoods as when there are more residnets walking in the streets they make the place safer as the are eyes to discourage anti social behaviour by unsavoury characters.
People in cars are behind their doors and in a sort of metal shield - they just drive on oblivious to whatever is happening around them.
Reclaim the streets. People need to learn to be less car dependant...certainly in dense cities like London.
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a humble correction "modAl" (as in type of vehicle) not model.
You say
"If one end of the road is blocked to motor vehicles then you will have to turn around to get out, Some of these roads with parked cars both sides are very narrow. It would be difficult for a family size car to turn around and a delivery lorry would not be able to negotiate the return journey."
The system will obvoiusly have to make provison for turning points.
The individual behaviour of some uncivil cyclists does not take away from the need for less car driving. How do you think people in the netherlands cope? Many Dutch alos have cars but walk and bike a lot too.
LTN do not do away with cars but return some balance between the modes of transport offering protection and encouragement to non-motorised traffic.
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Permalink Reply by Dan77 on
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I've looked at the proposals and I agree with others on here - every house will be accessible by car. Probably more accessible as side streets won't be clogged with through traffic from outside the borough taking short cuts.
Also worth noting that not all people with disabilities need or want unrestricted motor traffic across the ward. For example, my partner, who has a sight impairment, is in favour of an LTN as it will make her and our children's lives a lot safer
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Permalink Reply by Sarah on
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I am disabled (multiple sclerosis), live in St Ann's and do not own a car (recurrent temporary blindness does not make me want to own one, although I am still allowed a temporary medical license). I would like to move around my area safely, and this is why I am in favour of Option A for the LTN.
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