Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Local Parties dismiss voters' sense of place
Those of you who've been reading the posts on the site for a while will know that I hold strong views about our sense of place in Harringay..........well in any place really. Our sense of history's part of that, our sense of community is a part and our name is part.
Back in April 2008, Nilgun Canver offered the following:
Today Justin Hinchcliffe, Chair of the Tottenham Tories joined in on Twitter with a tweet apparently ridiculing a voter's wish to have her place of residence recognised as Harringay:
What is it with our politicians. Don't they get it. Many of us simply don't wish to have our area chopped up and repackaged to suit their notions of political entities or boundaries. We have the right to choose - not you.
Are there any other representatives from the local blues and reds who'd care to share their views on this issue? And what of the local Liberals. We've heard nothing from you on this. We'd welcome hearing what you think.
Let me leave the last word to Thomas Burke, writing in 1921:
(See my posting in the history group for more on Burke)
Back in April 2008, Nilgun Canver offered the following:
We've discussed and we have agreed to call the area Harringay Green Lanes and Too much emphasis on Harringay confuses everyone with the borough Haringey and I’m afraid it refers to the Harringay ward and excludes the Gardens and other target areas.
Today Justin Hinchcliffe, Chair of the Tottenham Tories joined in on Twitter with a tweet apparently ridiculing a voter's wish to have her place of residence recognised as Harringay:
What is it with our politicians. Don't they get it. Many of us simply don't wish to have our area chopped up and repackaged to suit their notions of political entities or boundaries. We have the right to choose - not you.
Are there any other representatives from the local blues and reds who'd care to share their views on this issue? And what of the local Liberals. We've heard nothing from you on this. We'd welcome hearing what you think.
Let me leave the last word to Thomas Burke, writing in 1921:
But do you think the inhabitants of those villas will rank themselves with those of Tottenham or Hornsey? Not likely. They are of Harringay. The guide-book was right: it is a suburb with a distinct individuality of its own.
Proud of its lineage, proud of its appearance in thirteenth-century records, it declines to surrender its identity to those who claim lordship over it. Before Tottenham and Hornsey were, Harringay was so often mentioned in ancient documents as to receive the honour of being spelt in six different ways - sure proof of importance. Indeed, the name Hornsey came into currency only through a corruption of Haringhea and Haringey; and it is therefore fit that the stout fellows of Harringay should defend the style and identity of their venerable village from the encroachments of that modern upstart Hornsey.
(See my posting in the history group for more on Burke)
Tags for Forum Posts: harringay name
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Justin Hinchcliffe on
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A pathetic partisan post, sadly.
One of the questions I've never had an answer for is where does Harringay start and end? As Cllr. Canver says, you have people in the "Gardens" who consider themselves to be Harringay residents - but HoL would dispute that - and dispute that strongly. Aren't you being a tad hypercritical here? She, the voter, lived closer to St. Ann's Hospital. The Ladder, a better name in IMHO, has an N8 postcode for half of it and many residents -- either out of sheer ignorance or snootiness-- say they're in Hornsey. Their MP, even, is Lynne Featherstone. This included one senior reporter at the local Journal (now working for the Scotsman!)
Why was that woman (the voter) so defensive? What's so wrong with Tottenham? I'm not sorry to ridicule people who say to me, "I don't live in Tottenham, I live in Harringay, Hornsey, Hale Village (delete as appropriate)" if it's said in a defensive, nasty or snooty fashion.
As for the Lib Dems (you did ask, Hugh), Harringay is in the "heart" of Tottenham according to several leaflets that they put out in the recent Seven Sisters by-election (where they came a poor third) to promote the Harringay-based candidate. I'd strongly disagree with them on that. They have, obviously, no sense of geography. The Edge of Tottenham, maybe?
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
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One of the questions I've never had an answer for is where does Harringay start and end?
My only contribution to this lively discussion on geography is that there is little doubt as to where the Ward boundaries are. I say little rather than no, because if the council had coded their mapping web page properly, making it suitably cross-platform, then I would be able to tell easily and quickly. As I do not use an operating system cobbled together by the well-known convicted criminal monopolist, I am at a slight disadvantage for the time being but I've let my frustration be known!
Ward boundaries are surely all that a politician need concern themselves with?
There is no accounting for where people think, imagine or prefer they live.
It's a bit like the Maori Electoral Roll in NZ. Some time ago, you had to be either one eighth or one sixteenth Maori (I can't remember) to be eligible to be recorded on the Maori electoral roll. Then the criteria was changed such that you could be on the Maori Roll if you felt you were a Maori (you probably can't flip between the Maori and the "European" electoral rolls).
Interbreeding is carrying on at such a pace that soon this will become a loose definition indeed. There are those who think a separate roll should be abandoned.
BTW, NZ has had a Proportional Representation system for some years now. It's modelled on the PR system in Germany. The German system was designed by the finest minds in Britain after the war. This kind of electoral system is still not yet good enough for Britain, though.
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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After a rocky Soaraway Sun opener Justin, an informative reply. Thanks.
Partisan? In what sense?
It's not tough to find out what I think of as Harringay Justin. Look at the map that's been at the top of the front page since this site launched. If you click on the map you'll see that I agree with you that people at the top end of the Ladder may think of themselves as living in Hornsey. As the map makes clear, I certainly think of the Gardens as Harringay and I think most of its residents would agree.
Interesting to note that I've changed my sense of the boundaries twice in the last two years - in resposne to what the locals think - that is I've extended it north east and south east and now, it seems we have a broad consensus that its roughly right. But as the north end of the Ladder example shows, boundaries of neighbourhoods aren't hard. My view is that so long as people aren't awa' with the faeries, each individual can define where they live, but where we have a consensus that an area is called this or that, I believe the politicians should respect that.
I'm not sure why you feel that your prospective voter was being defensive. Would I be right to think of you as being defensive if I called you Jeremy and you corrected me to say that in fact you're Justin. Why do notions of class need to get tied up with this?
If the Lib Dems say that Harringay is at the heart of Tottenham, then I agree with you Justin. I think they're mistaken on that .
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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on
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When I lived in Tottenham - I lived in Tottenham. Now I don't live in Tottenham - I live in Harringay. Can't see what's "defensive, nasty or snooty" about that. You mention Tottenham to people and geographically they think of Seven Sisters, Tottenham Green, the High Road and the Spurs ground. Don't think many people would put Yasser Halim and The Salisbury in Tottenham - do you?
In fact, when I try to describe where I live to people who aren't that familiar with the area, I use "north of Finsbury Park" to help them get their bearings.
Rebranding Harringay as NoFiP anyone?
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The Salisbury is very much of Tottenham, plus it has an N15 postcode.
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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on
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This time you'll have to disagree with me Justin .. because the Salisbury is definitely in Harringay.. and not in Tottenham.
I am right in thinking that you are only trying to provoke with these comments?
Bad publicity better than none?
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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The postcodes are only 50 years old aren't they? Hugh's bloke at the top was speaking in 1921.
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I haven't lived in Harringay for many years, but I have the boundaries 'in my blood'.. mention a street and I know instinctively whether it's part of Harringay or not..
I always felt that Harringay is straddled between Tottenham and Hornsey.. The border to Tottenham has always been a lot more 'fluid' than that to Hornsey because of the constraints the railway makes. Up to the 1960s, Tottenham UDC also had more influence than Hornsey UDC over the area for some reason.
Hornsey Council being famous for it's attempts to make the area sound 'grand' by using the 'Haringey' form. Tottenham countered by naming the street 'Grand Parade'. There has always was a division between those who lived on Hornsey soil considering themselves 'to be better' than 'the salt of the earth' to be found in Tottenham.
I think 'some' politicians, estate agents etc., still play to and try to benefit from these 'ancient' prejudices..
..At school at Woodlands Park in the 1960s, I was very close to a playground attendant who lived on Allison Road (most probably, just about on Hornsey UDC soil). She always made it very clear that she lived in Hornsey and not with the riff raff of Tottenham (me, from the Gardens). I've never forgotten her words ..
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This is the first time I've ever agreed with Stephen.
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Thanks Nora. Any chance of you persuading the chair of the GLSG to your view do you think?
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Permalink Reply by Carolyn Baker on
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Hugh, our views as always are that local democracy is at the heart of how we would run the council if we took control. That would mean that we would properly consult residents on what they want and act on your wishes. One of the things the libdem candidates for the Harringay area will campaign on next year is shaking up the area assembly and giving residents more direct input into how neighbourhood management works. We are already talking about allocating a bigger pot of money for expenditure to be determined locally. One of the great things about Harringay is that it makes us think residential - that is not to exclude commercial, but it puts commercial at the heart of a residential area. I am not aware of the Seven Sisters leaflet, but I'm sure that what was meant is that David's heart is in Tottenham borough .. which is accurate. We are all clear on the geography of the area we represent! I think what is important here, Justin, is not the views of politicians on what is middle class and what is not, but the views of residents on where they live. On the whole, I don't think that has really ever been the concern of the Tories or the Labour party. I also think it is extremely misleading of Mr Hinchcliffe to challenge on the grounds of class .. I don't think Tory politics has changed that much in the last 15 years! I would only expect a disaster for Tottenham with a Tory majority nationally or locally.
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I suppose if Tory (sic) Blair thought Britain was at the heart of Europe, David S. has a right to sing 'My heart's in the T'ham Highlands, my heart is not here.' Of course if Tory Cameron gets his referendum President Blair may have to stick his heart somewhere else.
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