Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Favoured Rubbish Dumping Spots - What's the Solution?
We all know of a spot we walk past locally which is a favoured rubbish dumping spot.
There's one at the bottom of the road on which I live - the dumps are rarely that big, but they’re persistent. Usually, I'll spend less then a minute to snap a picture with the Haringey report-it app and zap off a report.
Some people question the wisdom of this. 'Doing that', they say, 'just encourages people to dump. If they know it will be collected they'll dump again'.
I can't say that I disagree with their logic. My actions may well have that effect. But, on the other hand it's also probably true that many of the people who do dump, don't give their actions a second thought. They just want to be rid of their mess and make it someone else's problem. If their dumped rubbish wasn't cleared and instead it piled up, I'm sure they'd just tut and mutter about how useless the Council is. Most wouldn't amend their behaviour.
The Broken Windows theory also holds true - uncleared rubbish attracts more rubbish.
So, on balance, I decide to carry on reporting. However, I can't help thinking that there must be a better way to focus on trouble spots.
I asked the Council how many times they've been called to collect rubbish at the bottom of my road over the past couple of years. I got their answer this week and it turns out it's somewhere between every day and every other day, 21 times a month on average.
Given the degree to which Council decisions are driven by financial considerations these days, my thoughts had been running along the lines of working out the cost of collecting all this rubbish and whether some sort of deterrence measure would work out cheaper.
However, on the issue of cost the email said "The cost of collecting dumped rubbish in the borough is included as part of the overall core contract cost. There is no separate payment to Veolia for collection of this type of dumped rubbish".
That gave me pause for thought. The implication of this answer is that, as things stand now, the Council has no financial interest in deterring dumping. It's good that responding to dumped rubbish reports are part of the contract with Veolia, but in contracting out dealing with the problem, I can't help feeling the Council has divested itself of a good part of its interest in solving it.
Now it's Veolia who have the over-riding interest in dealing with the issue and they're only likely to consider it in the context of the lifetime of the current contract. Would they therefore be interested in deterrence measures? Maybe....if the sums were right.....maybe....
What might deterrence look like? I guess the first option would be designing out the attractiveness of a place for dumping. An alternative has to be some sort of punitive regime. We know that bad behaviour like driving in bus lanes is very well controlled by fines and whilst it's true that people don't wear licence plates, I wonder if this might also work for dumping.
Answers on a postcard.........
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Dolomite Police on
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Does the council still charge to pick up people's unwanted large items? This really encourages dumping - it's an instant money saver. I think they need to have signs up everywhere that it is not OK and that fines are being issued. Having those signs in several languages might also help. There are some countries where dumping stuff in the street is just what you do so not everyone may necessarily appreciate that it is unacceptable, especially if it is swiftly removed. Not that ignorance is an excuse and not to say that most fly-tippers are not fully aware that what they are doing is wrong. They need a major enforcement programme, not just doing it but showing everyone that they are doing it. But catching people in the act of fly-tipping is easier said than done. I report on the app daily but I have only caught someone in the act once and I was at the opposite end of the passageway section to her... by the time I got to that spot she had vanished. Had my suspicions on which house it was but that's not enough to finger point.
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Permalink Reply by Dan77 on
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I have had a security camera for two months. Already I've caught half a dozen people in the act. They are so unhurried about it, sometimes - stopping for a chat, pausing to light a cigarette.
It would be relatively cheap and easy to install CCTV that could make out number plates, and then fine people as is done for traffic offences. Sure, some of these people have no insurance and are off the DVLA radar, but in those cases the police will be on the lookout for then anyway.
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Permalink Reply by JoeW on
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I think pointing your domestic CCTV outside your own property is a breach of privacy laws.
Having said that, I hope the people you caught have been heavily fined.
Starting to feel a bit 1984 isn't it...
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Permalink Reply by Retired on
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High Hugh, sorry too trouble You, but I did not get my “ Harringay on Line this Week “ 20/4/18, has there been any problems ????? Thanks. Retired Eddie
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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I'm afraid we do seem to have problems with our messaging system from time to time. I've reported it to Ning from who own to software we use, but the issues carry on. I'm afraid there's not much else I can do. To help people affected I started posting the newsletter online each week. So, if you miss a newsletter, you can use one of the green buttons in the upper left hand side of the home page to read it online.
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Permalink Reply by Sarah on
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I used to work in waste enforcement and I think you are absolutely right.
Haringey actually did a really good job of designing out dumping at the intersection of Roslyn Road and Greenfield road (pedestrian/bike path). It used to be a notorious dumping spot but now it has a lovely garden maintained by residents and there's almost no dumping.
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Permalink Reply by Zena Brabazon on
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Thank you Hugh for posting this thread and for all the contributions and comments. This is a huge problem and I know how much it angers residents. From observation I suspect some people put rubbish by bins because they think it is the right thing to do - in other words the bin itself encourages dumping. In Tottenham Hale some notorious dumping hotspots were by specific litter bins including opposite our home. Everyday, piles of dumping. We asked the Council to remove the bin which finally they did. The dumping has stopped. This is the same outside the local primary, so maybe this is another idea to tackle it.
I think having some round table discussions between residents and the Council about how to tackle dumping would be a good starting point for seeing if we can improve things. We can try different strategies, and see what works. Enforcement, education, signage, urban design, citizen monitoring all have a role and as money is limited we do need to draw on ideas, good practice to see if we can make improvements. It is as they say, a 'wicked issue'.
Zena
Zena Brabazon
Cllr, Harringay ward, Labour Candidiate, Local Elections, May 3, 2018
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Permalink Reply by Albert Ross on
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Thanks Zena,
I think a multi pronged approach of education, deterrence and enforcement is the way to go.At the end of the day its a crime: A week long blitz of known hot spots by police and council would catch a number of people, weeding them out, as well as sending a message to others.
Back this up with a local poster and leaflet drop campaign before and another one after (about who got caught, the fines etc they got) and information on what people should be doing with their waste is surely the first step - And surely that's not going to be that expensive to do?
This is the No1 issue of frustration and anger for so many local residents in Wood Green, Turnpike Lane and Haringey.
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James, I hope you realise that we have a very strict rule on HoL. We impose a £100 fine on any local who doesn't know the difference between Harringay and Haringey.
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Oh god im so sorry I did actually try and get it right as well!
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On Saturday I went for a run in the South Downs. On my way in I saw a bin with a bright yellow sticker saying "No FLY Tipping. It is an offence to deposit domestic or trade waste in or around this bin"
I don't work in Enforcement any more but geek that I am, I took a photo. I thought it was quite an effective sticker. And there was no waste around the bin.
Other signs I've seen just say things like "no dumping" or "no fly tipping" perhaps stating the maximum fine. But they don't explain what dumping actually is. Like you said a lot of people think they are doing the right thing by putting waste next to a bin.
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