Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Inside Hornsey Town Hall- beautiful municipal spaces
Thought others might like to see some pics of the interior as public haven't had much access here for years while they decide what to do with it..
The show is in the old council chamber, so will try to add a pic of that later...
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image.jpg, 1.1 MB
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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Secret negotiations. Unpublished hidden details. Information only through leaks. No reference to locals?
Chris, you sound like some angry anti-council anti-Kober conspiracy theorist. Surely you've not been re-reading those absurd unbelievable ridiculous and carefully evidenced diatribes by Alan Stanton?
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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on
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I'll bite :)
I speak as I find, Alan.
You seem to spend most of your time on this website promoting at length the idea that the council acts against our interests. That seems to be your default position and the end result is that other political opponents chime in with a 'hear, hear' and add their own diatribes, gaining political capital because of you.
End result? Anyone reading this website quickly comes to the conclusion that people think the council are rubbish, corrupt etc - everything they fail at comes as no surprise etc. I guess that people think that this website represents a broad sample of views about both Harringay and Haringey and so it spreads the idea, given credence particularly by the Lib Dems, that Haringey is a 'failing council'.
The huge range of work the council's 3800 employees do every day is ignored - I think it's not fair - you are allowed to get away with promoting your view because nobody could be bothered to post positive stuff. So the website becomes a place that opposes the council.
No wonder the politicians don't want to get involved! I think we get the council we deserve and your constant drip, drip undermining people's attitude allows them to escape any responsibility.
It's our council, we elected them, we pay them. Everything they do they do in our name. It's not 'us and them', it's us. If the council do the wrong thing and we don't move to change the system that allows them to continue, that's down to us. I've tried to get them to behave over Hornsey Town Hall and have failed. I accept that - I'll continue to press for what I think is right so it won't stop me, but I'm not going to use the experience to rubbish them, and neither should you.
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People don't post positive stuff John - the TV news is full of doom and gloom. Do you really want to hear good news about the Council though?
There are reports of the Council's performance in various league tables. If news was posted here of a good performance, garbage would be poured on it from a great height - a range of cynical and some nasty comments referring to various bugbears would ensue, so why would people bother?
Overall, how to get a balanced view of the Council?
Compare it to others? on that basis, it's not doing badly but do any of the regular posters want to hear that? No, it doesn't fit in with their 'bash-the-council narrative.
Take Council Tax for instance - how to evaluate that as a political success/failure? I note that some other boroughs have raised it but ours hasn't. Is that a good thing LBH have achieved? Deserving of praise?
How about budget cuts? In response to central government's vicious, unnecessary and cost-more-than-they-save ideological cuts I see that some councils have dumped on the poorest - how about our Council? Have they done a good job?
Do we here on this website have even the faintest clue as to how to more or less objectively rate the performance? Were we to do that, would we take another step and try to make positive, doable suggestions as to how things could be improved? What is wrong with the audit and scrutiny process - why is that never discussed? People are happy to spew bile here, but actually watch a council committee broadcast or attend a meeting?
This website seems so fixed on hating on the council that these issues are not even posed as topics, let alone discussed.
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Permalink Reply by Liz on
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"This website" has over 8,000 members, any of whom can post positive comments about their experiences dealing with the council (in the past, I have posted about any positive interactions or welcome initiatives from the council - this from October for example)
This website seems so fixed on hating on the council
The mistake you make *yet again* is to assume that "this website" is like a newspaper and that it has an editorial policy. It doesn't, beyond our terms and conditions of use which preclude certain types of post. You suggest that people "spew bile" - no, they don't, we don't permit people under the T&Cs, although we do allow people to post about their frustrations and problems - this is not *bile* and I am disappointed that an active member of the Labour Party should dismiss people's comments as bile.
But perhaps this is symptomatic of the deeper problem of politics in this country and the increasing polarisation of opinion on both sides. People seem to prefer to sit in echo chambers with their political allies, and if anyone states something different from what they want to hear, they put their fingers in their ears and sing la la I can't hear you ...or worse they smear anyone who disagrees with them with innuendo about their motives and beliefs, be it 'the politics of envy' to "you're just saying that because actually you don't like XYZ"
Overall, how to get a balanced view of the Council?
The council's communication with residents is appalling - its officers often fail to communicate good news; consultation is weak and learning from other councils is non-existent. I'm afraid the situation is probably worse than any of us know (I know of serious failings that are affecting the poorest in our community) and everything is blamed on cuts but even looking over the border to places like Islington and Hackney suggest that even when backs are up against the wall, the result doesn't have to be failure and inefficiency.
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Sorry Liz, I'm not getting at the moderators - you do a superb job. Also I don't have the overview you have - I only see a small selection of what happens.
I have posted here quite a lot though and rarely see anything positive that helps - didn't see your October example for instance. People often post clear examples where the Council seems to be doing a terrible job but where is the perspective?
By the way, I'm not 'an active member of the Labour Party' - I'm just a person with views and opinions - my views are my own. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 'real' Labour party members actively disagreed with me.
You write:
The council's communication with residents is appalling - its officers often fail to communicate good news; consultation is weak and learning from other councils is non-existent.
So, should we just accept that and move on? Relative to other councils, are we the worst?
Words you use like 'appalling' are not very easy to accept - I can think of plenty of things that are truly appalling and council comms is not one of them. Again, 'learning from other councils is non-existent' - how can you possibly know that? It sounds like a prejudice, not a statement of fact.
I know that the Council are in partnership with several other councils on various projects - Retrofit for instance, a project that could attack a huge problem in our borough, of poor people living in poorly-insulated homes that cost them too much to heat - can it really be true that our Council is refusing to learn from their partner-councils? If so, who is it in our Council that is doing this? Are you blaming the politicians or the officers?
I've seen plenty of what I feel is bile over the Council's publication of Haringey People for example, but no counterbalancing view. Recently, the government commanded some boroughs to stop producing theirs so frequently and I learned that councils are allowed to produce four issues a year. I felt the constant attack on Haringey People was one-sided and ill-informed to the point of horribleness, almost naming individuals and sneering at their salary. There was no sense that there might be very good reasons to produce it, nor that the professionals working on it might be worth their salary. Mainly, there was no sense that, if the council are doing something, it might not only be with good intent, but that it might actually be effective, or that they have a perfect right to do this sort of thing if they want.
I could give other examples of areas of discussion that seem to me to be one-sided bandwagons where the end result is a general condemnation of what the Council do - I'd like to see people accept the responsibility and actually achieve positive change other than a negative moan. I'd like to see a way that people interested can be helped to bring about change.
The real good news I read on this website are the many examples of people's creativity, resourcefulness and good humour, their kindness in sharing and helping, their mutual support and good-neighbourliness, their willingness to share and to help, to go the extra mile for strangers.
As soon as it comes to the Council though, a red mist seems to descend...
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'learning from other councils is non-existent' - how can you possibly know that?'
I know this because I spend a fair amount of my time working with groups who have to interact with the council and, in the course of that work, we often point to good practice in other councils which is routinely ignored. This is not the same thing as working in partnership with councils to bring about projects; this is where their basic services are failing and when it is brought to their attention, with examples of where another council is doing it differently and with better results, they fail to look at either the failings or the possibility of doing it another way. Not prejudice; stone cold experience.
I have long been an advocate of co-production in some less basic areas like ground maintenance, and some officers are extremely helpful in facilitating resident led initiatives, work which I have happily thanked them for personally as well as in writing. These include Parks staff, Library staff, Bruce Castle Museum, Enforcement (when it existed), Recycling but these are often exceptional individuals; the *culture* remains the same of always being on the back foot, constant crisis management, listening to the squeakiest wheels, avoiding problems until they become a crisis despite repeated warnings. Not prejudice - I can give you examples of all of these from my 7 odd years of community work in a number of areas - and I don't see any signs of this improving under Mr Walkley, despite some early promise.
Truth about citizen-led change is that it's time-consuming, it can be very hard on the stress levels, it can leave you open to attack and unpleasantness from all sides and it can often end in disappointment when the change you hope for doesn't materialise or is significantly different to what you intended. Most people don't want to put themselves up for that. Why should they? They reasonably expect the people who present themselves for election every four years to play a part in that, but the current Cabinet system hamstrings the best of them, while the worst jostle for a place at top table choosing favour from the top over standing up for residents.
Moreover, so much at the council is out-sourced now that when you try to play your part as a citizen, the information is withheld because it's not a public sector department and they cry "commercial confidentiality". One recent inquiry into the figures for local welfare assistance hit a brick wall because the company that administers it is not the council. No obligation to supply us with figures for research despite taking public money to do the job.
But you demand counter- balance. Well, provide it. Not denunciation of members in language guaranteed to get people annoyed - "bile", "red mist", "one-sided bandwagons", "horribleness" - post the good news, tell us about the positive experiences, get others to do the same. People like good news. Don't wait for others to do it for you. We're all "citizen reporters" now.
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Thanks Liz but the work involved in posting good news about the Council is too great - I'd have to do enough research to make sure it was good news and that's hard - it'd sound as mistaken as those who just criticise. The Council 'spin' things just as frequently as all organisations do and they're clever enough to make it hard to contradict their good news but I don't want to end up being thought of as a source of propaganda - that's what would happen on this site.
I think the future for Council-resident relationships must be more of a partnership than it's ever been. That trend hasn't slowed in recent decades and I welcome it - that's how it should be imho.
I don't mean just with the many good citizens (almost always householders or those with a financial stake in their area) who are active and often tireless campaigners who sit on committees and do the hard work of implementing beneficial change. I mean the rest of us too - those who are transient and those who never get involved, those who came to live in London to get away from being surveilled by their local community and relish the freedom of anonymity in a big city - they're the ones who don't seem to understand that with rights come responsibilities and you can't simply do as you please.
Accountability is a relationship and we as residents aren't as well-equipped as we might be to play our part though, and that's something we can change here.
The key to me is availability of information. I think so called 'open data' is a tide that cannot be turned and would like to see a 'guide to Council data' on this site so that we collectively can pool our knowledge of what exists and how to find stuff out, then add what we did with it.
Probably not enough people know, for instance, the the Council publishes every item of expenditure over £500 but how useful is that dataset? The Council could do a lot more to link the individual items with projects, budgets etc but nobody seems to care - it seems 'hidden in plain sight'.
Here's example is October 2014's figures for spend above £100k:
VEOLIA ES (UK) LTD Public Realm £1,411,648
FUSION LIFESTYLE General £848,959
HAYS SPECIALIST RECRUITMENT People and Recruitment £632,219
BARNET ENFIELD+HARINGEY MH TRUST Public Health £623,043
HAYS SPECIALIST RECRUITMENT People and Recruitment £622,935
KEEPMOAT REGENRATION (APOLLO) LTD Construction, Property and Fac Man £494,862
KEEPMOAT REGENRATION (APOLLO) LTD Construction, Property and Fac Man £484,622
HARINGEY SCHOOLS SERVICES LIMITED Children and Education £353,898
RINGWAY JACOBS LIMITED Public Realm £284,965
WATES CONSTRUCTION LTD Construction, Property and Fac Man £252,552
THE WHITTINGTON HOSPITAL NHS TRUST Public Health £249,917
ST MUNGOS COMMUNITY HOUSING ASSOCIA Public Health £242,713
KEEPMOAT REGENRATION (APOLLO) LTD Construction, Property and Fac Man £224,078
VEOLIA ES (UK) LTD Public Realm £175,545
BERNIE GRANT CENTRE PARTNERSHIP LTD Social care £150,000
EUROPA FACILITIES MANAGEMENT LTD Construction, Property and Fac Man £126,786
CNWL NHS FOUNDATION TRUST Sport and Leisure £120,477
JACKSONS LANE Construction, Property and Fac Man £110,000
MEDEQUIP ASSISTIVE TECH. LTD Social care £105,995
ASSETGROVE LETTINGS LTD Temporary Accommodation £103,481All it would take, is one Harringay business to spot an opportunity and win a contract they otherwise wouldn't have gotten to maybe make it worth their investment. We could help by spreading the info, and trying to get the procurement department to formally admit, contrary to their apparent public stance, that there is a way to prefer local suppliers.
Another one is an issue I read about here once - the Haringey reporting app using data from which we could see how responsive the Council actually are when residents report stuff using it. I have direct experience of some of the response rates which seem to me to have been real quick but how can I tell?
Maybe we could draw together responsiveness reports and apply some external standards that would help us get a more objective view but that's doing the work of the civil servants we're paying to do precisely that, so pressing for getting their reports open would probably be more effective. When people see rubbish lying uncollected they seem to automatically blame the Council and don't seem at all interested in getting at the truth. As a community we could effectively scrutinise in a more organised way through this site much more than we do now.
The problem is, when these reports and information call for a judgement, a matter of opinion, we seem to all start out with the presumption that the Council is inefficient or corrupt or worse - do you really think that is likely to change on this site?
If we could change that, then maybe it would be worth lobbying for the sort of open data pages that, say, another 'outer' London Council (Redbridge) offer their residents.
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Permalink Reply by John D on
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" the work involved in posting good news about the Council is too great "
Now why would that be ?
I don't see what you're getting at Chris. You complain about contributors being negative but you don't say anything positive yourself. Liz mentioned some of the good things for which the Council is responsible - libraries etc ( although the Council has threatened some of those with closure. )
I have every admiration for the Council workers on the street and those facing the public but they are not the people who spend our money on jollies to the French Riviera or bungs to developers while architectural treasures like Hornsey Town Hall are allowed to fall into disrepair. You can find positive comments on the performance of the Council but only in the " Haringey People " and who writes that ?
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Permalink Reply by Richard Woods on
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Would love to see it - long memories.... school prizegivings, Christmas pantos, cub reporter at Hornsey council meetings, cousin's register office wedding and his maroon Bentley Continental! Fabulous architecture.
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Permalink Reply by Bob Lindsay-Smith on
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It is a wonderful place, judging by the photos on this thread.
I've just seen this worrying news on the Trust's website:-
'Hornsey Town Hall Creative Trust is dismayed by the news that the Mountview project will not be going forward. This is after almost four years of hard work by Mountview, the London Borough of Haringey (LBH) and the Trust. The Trust supported Mountview’s vision for the Town Hall from the outset and long advocated that LBH should work with them to explore every possible funding option, from both the private and public sector.'
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