Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
HARINGEY COUNCIL TRANSPORT PLANNER
Haringey%20transport%20planner_20150626_0001.pdf
Has anyone else read this piece of patronising rubbish that Haringey have paid to implement, and to print and to send out people onto our doorsteps to help us to choose modes of transport for getting around London???? I'm soooo annoyed with them!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John D on
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My family live in Maidstone, Kent. If I drive to see them it takes an hour. If I use public transport it takes four hours. If it's at the weekend, part of the journey will be by replacement bus service because of engineering work on the line.
That's why I prefer to drive.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on
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He gave some contacts for groups who provided specialised help with guided walking with people with mobility problems or heath issues that could be improved through walking. We didn't know that these existed before he visited.
I'll leave it to car users to let you know why they wish to use one. I have never had one so I'm not really qualified to say.
I'd be interested to understand though why some people seem to really dislike this initiative? It all feels a bit "it's Haringey so it must be rubbish". I know that many London borough carry out exactly the same kind of work.
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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Okay, Michael, I'll own up. It's Koberville. Of course I'm sceptical.
So, trying hard to cast off my bias, as advised by the letter in the pdf file, I looked at the Smarter Travel page on Haringey website.
At the top of the page is a video which certainly fits Melvyn's description of patronising. Why? Because few people I know who regularly use public transport in London would describe it as saving time and frustration compared to driving. Or make the cheery claim that it's less stressful. One reason why I sometimes find even walking stressful is because of cyclists on the pavement; or who occasionally jump red lights when I'm crossing.
I used to be a cyclist. But gave up not long after I moved to Tottenham. After a couple of near misses and coming off my bike; it was too scary.
"Most people are simply too scared to ride bicycles in traffic. This fear is entirely logical. Nearly half of people struck by cars moving at thirty miles per hour, die. And the mortality rate keeps going up with velocity." — Charles Montgomery: Happy City: Transforming Our Lives Through Urban Design
I'm sure, Michael that you know lots of drivers who will tell you, if you ask them, some of the reasons why they don't use walking as transport more often; or take the bus or tube; or leap onto their bikes. Are "sustainable transport" advocates smart enough to start from what people think and feel, and their day to day experience? Or are they simply another sort of evangelist? Young and fitter and what Charles Montgomery describes as a: "properly trained vehicular cyclist [who] should play the role of hero rather than victim." (p.196)
The rest of Haringey's Smarter Travel page contains little which is new about "smart travel" as such. It lists several local events. And also conflates some helpful ongoing initiatives - e.g. "Dr Bike" and "Living Under One Sun" - with the fraud known as Tottenham "regeneration" - i.e. the public housing demolition, tower block building and Social Cleansing programme.
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Alan, having not been a Haringey councillor or employee I have not first hand experience of, well, the experience. I can only approach this issue from what I have experienced. That is both from the contact we had on the door step and having worked as next door neighbours for a number of years to transport planners in Camden, some of whom did this kind of work (funded by TfL and the Mayor). I even helped out at events on a couple of occasions when they were short staffed. I have to say that my own experiences and my experience of contacts with others on the issue have been largely positive.
The argument about not wanting to walk or use forms of transport other than private cars does become rather circular though. Buses crawl along the street because they are jammed with mostly private vehicles, so people don't use buses, instead using cars, which make the streets even more congested and makes the buses go slower and so on Ad Infinitum.
I too am afraid to use a bike because of the traffic on the roads. So if the traffic reduces because more people use public transport, cycle or walk................
I think there is one that that maybe we can all agree with, the land area for cars in London cannot increase but the population can (and is) so something has to give.
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Thanks Michael. I think we may be agreeing about quite a lot here.
And Charles Montgomery is also saying a lot of similar things. If you've read his book you'll know that he is an advocate of cycling; walking; running; convivial human-spaced and paced public squares and boulevards;and high streets.
Yet he also knows that the substantive change he wants needs visionary planners and politicians and community organisations.
Although unless and until that happens, he thinks we can still learn from examples of people who have undertaken what he calls a "personal retrofit". Who've traded ownership and income for quality of life. So they can walk or bike to work and spend more time with friends and families.
If you haven't read the book I strongly recommend it. And if you buy it from the Big Green Bookshop they will give £2 off to the first ten people who order it. £7.99 instead of £9.99. (Phone 0208 881 6767 and mention this website.)
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Permalink Reply by AndrewAW1 on
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That's an interesting quote and, having not read the book, I'm not sure of the context.
The trouble is that the fear is entirely illogical. When they actually did a study on this the health benefits of urban cycling outweighed the risks by a huge proportion
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Thanks for the link to the Barcelona study, Andrew. I can't see where it deals specifically with cyclist casualities in Barcelona and specifically with deaths and serious injuries.
In any case, is "the fear really entirely illogical"?
Here's the latest page I've been able to find from The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA) webpage about UK Cycling accidents in 2013 and 2014.
Do read the book. (And support our local Big Green Bookshop.) Charles Montgomery is pro-cycling, pro-walking and while not anti-car, wants to see cars put firmly in their place, rather than being a main factor in shaping our lives in cities.
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Well the summary states
As a result of physical activity, 12.46 deaths were avoided (benefit:risk ratio 77). The annual number of deaths avoided was 12.28.
which, at its basest, is comparing how likely you are to die early from being run over as opposed to how likely you are to die early from not getting the exercise from cycling.I cycle in London and agree that the perception is that you should be concerned by the traffic. However, when you break it down into raw numbers as above a benefit:risk ratio of 77 is massive and fear of cycling in urban areas is, in the big picture, illogical. It's not the kind of thing you'd perceive as an individual though.
It's one of those many areas where common sense has to take a back seat to actual scientific studies.
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A single study, Andrew, in one city - Barcelona - and focusing on the estimated benefits for users of a Public bicycle scheme. And a study which does not escape academic challenge and critique. For example here's one in the British Medical Journal which suggests some serious flaws.
http://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/11/03/evaluating-benefits-pu...
You didn't comment on the RoSPA webpage. Have they got the figures wrong?
But you're right, of course, that people's judgements will be based - perhaps misleadingly - on common sense even when the overwhelming scientific evidence may show that our fears are illogical and counter intuitive.
I'm not a scientist, Andrew. I'm simply an ex-cyclist whose common sense tells me to walk or take a back seat in a bus or tube rather than putting my life back on a bike in London streets.
Take away some traffic though, and we can all recapture the streets.
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Answering your question Michael, for myself I don't dislike the initiative, and the worst I've said about it is that the letter is clumsy and omitted useful information that's on the website. Saying someone will knock on my door but not when or why, and if I'm out they'll be back isn't a good start, I'd say: better to start with the 'what is Personal Travel Planning' part, then say what they were going to do about it.
I reckon my own travel information knowledge versus needs doesn't need a top-up (but then I'm curious about transport e.g. I contribute to the Steam Watchers group) so I've emailed them not to call (i.e. go to those who could - as you have done) benefit from it.
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I understand your point but the problem is how do you find out who needs this information? In our case we didn't know that we didn't know. If we hadn't been door knocked we still wouldn't be aware of the service.
For the first few years I lived on the Ladder I was honestly unaware that there was a train from Harringay station on Wightman Road that would get me to work in Kings Cross with a change at Finsbury Park, in 12 minutes. I continued to slog down Green Lanes and on to the tube for ages without needing to. Wonder how many people know you can go from Harringay Green Lanes station all the way to Westfield in Shepherds Bush in about 25 minutes for instance?
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Ha! We lived in Kings Crescent off Blackstock Road when we moved to London, late 70s. One of us had a job at Islington Central Library on Holloway Road, (Fieldway Crescent, opposite St Mary's church). Only after we moved (to the ladder) did we realise that instead of walking up to Finsbury Park tube station, getting the Victoria line to Highbury & Islington, then slogging up the Holloway Road, that simply walking from home to work would have been a) possible and b) about as quick, as well as being free and a much more pleasant journey, partly across Highbury Fields. So yes your point is well taken and I think the initiative is useful though clumsily promoted!
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