Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Harringay Traffic Study
The council have put out a draft Request for Quotation for a Transport Study of the Harringay area and are asking for comments - to Razak.Mahama@haringey.gov.uk - by the 6th of November.
The link to the page on the council website page about it is: http://www.haringey.gov.uk/parking-roads-and-travel/roads-and-stree... or the document itself is attached here: Green%20Lanes%20Transport%20Study%20Brief.pdf.
Will be interesting to see how it plays out. From the historical traffic changes in the area we've some reason to be nervous, so for example, its interesting to see what is and isn't included in meeting notes from the traffic meeting mentioned in section 1.4 - no mention at all of the Hewitt No Right Turn prompting the meeting to happen or of the problems that the Hewitt change has caused. And the establishing a stakeholder group of key representatives, which from previous similar groups often seem to be dominated by a few and not always serve some residents so well. But lets be optimistic for now...
As is the councils way, the document is uncopyable text so i can't cutNpaste it in here so here are the pages as scanned images:
Tags for Forum Posts: harringay traffic study, traffic
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by matt on
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Eddie (OAE), you should charge down them there hills and sink your highway flag upon the greenest of Green Lanes, exclaiming peace be upon him the Wightman ... (Rd), forever a winding back lane of nothingness or, alternatively just start another independent residents group of obscurity - god knows we have enough of them within the Republic of North Harringay!!
Well done to the council for getting this going & good luck dealing with the many differing anxieties!
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Permalink Reply by Old-Age-Emporium(OAE) on
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Am working on it, Matt!
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Permalink Reply by matthew cuthbert on
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Indeed you can go direct folks.
Yes the North South Radial Route, as opposed to a residential road, I am very disappointed by this definition, it sounds impersonal & remote.
I've got used to the co secretary format, or rotate chairs, where residents show knowledge or concern in an area, that seems democratic. Wine and cheese helps at the end to discuss things informally, and remain amicable, Viva WRRA!
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Permalink Reply by ant on
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So any comments on the RFQ itself?
What about the area it defines for the study? The study area excludes bits like the north east side of green lanes - where things like the Harringay Rd / Stanley Rd closure which concentrate traffic onto Falkland Rd, shown here, also the area just to the west of the railway tracks with the traffic restrictions around Denton Rd etc which push traffic onto Wightman Rd and the Ladder, here. Should those be included too along with the Gardens and Hermatage areas?
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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Oh Ant that is such a good point! Where was the survey done before all that was made "no through traffic"? Beggar thy neighbour indeed.
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You can either make weapons or create peace, can we go forward with something positive here.
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It all contributory, traffic needs to be reduced by understanding why journeys are made.
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I'm not highlighting the road closures to "blame" them or try to get them reopened, most of them actually seem like pretty good ideas to me. As you say, through traffic shouldn't be on residential roads.But I do think its useful to show the closures around here as it shows how hemmed in the Ladder has become, and also i think if people have more awareness of them it might make it easier to get more things done within the Ladder.
As you say for each closure one or two other streets may have seen an increase in traffic while others become better off. that i think is key. As one example when the Gardens got closed off the Hewitt traffic had a significant increase but many other streets had a decrease - was that worth it? How do you judge? Should the traffic just be spread evenly everywhere, or close off some places at the expense of others? Is a closure only good if makes some people are better off and none worse off, or is it acceptable if just more are better off than worse off? Those are the sort of questions an eventual traffic consultation should be asking to get a better understanding of what the community wants.
There is vastly more through traffic on the ladder than local traffic though, and school traffic is pretty insignificant. Eg, this is a graph of Frobisher traffic which has North Harringay Primary school on the road, you can see the peaks at school drop off and pick up times but those don't really add much to the daily traffic volume:
And its a similar picture for the other streets with the schools. There are around 27000 trips on the Ladder rung roads each week day. If that was mainly local traffic then the local car owners would need to be each driving around the Ladder many times each every day, but most don't even use their cars much during the week - continuing with the Frobisher example - there are something like 100 houses on Frobisher, from the census data less than 50% have cars, but there are nearly 2000 cars trips on the street each day - that would take 40 trips per day per local car owner!
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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on
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Ant, back in the 80s a group of us did vehicle counting on Warham (which was then two way). Between 7 and 8am one person logged the first three letters/numbers of cars entering/exiting at the Green Lanes end and one did the same at the Wightman end. At the end we looked at matching registrations and the percentage of vehicles that entered and exited Warham (that is went through it rather than starting the journey there) was in the 90% area, which backs up your view of local versus through traffic causing problems.
This was pre-personal computer and everything was hand written so I don't have the original records. I do know it formed part of a campaign lead by the then Neighbourhood Watch.
I know if was some considerable time ago but I can't imagine the proportions changing that much, just the volumes.
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There has been a noticeable increase in 'off-peak' traffic in the last 3 years or so. Some of it is due to the rise and rise of online shopping and therefore home deliveries.
Schools have deliveries, visitors, contractors, waste collections during this period (as well as parents & carers collecting children from various pre-school groups) but it's pretty minimal tbh.
Ant, where did you get that data from?
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We have some traffic counters and have done counts for a lot of the streets. From that:
There are about 27000 cars on the ladder rungs each week day. Almost evenly split between going east-west and west-east. The north of the Ladder is much busier getting 50% more traffic than the south. If that 27000 was shared evenly over the 19 Ladder rungs it would be about 1400 per road per day, so you can see which presently get more or less than that share - Xxxxxxxxx, Xxxxxxxxx, Xxxxxx, Xxxxxxxxxx and Xxxxxx are busier ones, Seymour is quiet as are Xxxxxxx, Hewitt and Xxxxxxxxx. So for example, if there are micro level changes like the Hewitt No Right Turn change you can see the effect of that was to push a lot of traffic to the already busy roads, an alternative change to reduce the busyness of Hewitt that would have been fairer would have been to leave Hewitt alone and flip the direction of Seymour which would have avoided increasing traffic on already busy roads and would have moved both Seymour and Hewitt close to their 1400/day share. Unfair to Seymour? But Seymour was much busier before the Ladder one-way and closing the Gardens changes.
Wightman is really busy, maybe slightly busier than Green Lanes even. Closing it off all of a sudden would cause chaos, which is what happened when there was that fire at the MOT place a little while back. Wightman shares the north-south traffic with Green Lanes, and Wightman is only able to be so busy by having its parking go on the footpath. Thats a trade off - parking and loading on Green Lanes is possible because Wightman takes a lot of the traffic by having the parking on the footpath. Could this study result in changing that? Maybe make a representation? To who? See this RFQ Section 3.1 Stage 2 - to the stakeholder group. Do you think that Wightman / Green Lanes trade off will change if things are left to the usual ones that makeup stakeholder groups around here? I think yes OAE, now is the time to go dust of the WRRA and try to get it as an equal member of this new stakeholder group.
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Tris I really take exception with this: "namely drivers hoping to shave a few seconds off their journey by cutting through between Wightman Road and Green Lanes".
If you cut through the top of the ladder you can turn a trip through seven sets of traffic lights into a trip through two. That is not seconds, it's minutes and WELL worth it.
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