The SUN's petition about our Council's responsibility for Baby P

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on November 26, 2008 at 17:57

Clive, the Sun may gloat about the numbers of people who signed this petition. Its campaign is probably making Murdoch a lot of money. But I expected better of you. Do you really want to see such issues tried-by-newspaper? When did we abandon due process? When did it become okay to decide the verdict and punishment before finding out the full facts?

For a moment ignore the politicians and just consider the staff. Would you be supporting this witch hunt if the people targeted by the Sun were your family members or friends? If they were the ones judged guilty without the chance to put their case or correct falsehoods or inaccuracies?

Did you read my post here? You seem an intelligent and thoughtful man. Did none of my points give you pause for thought?

How safe will the children of Haringey be - or any other local authority - if staff leave and are not replaced? Doesn't it make sense that the safety of vulnerable children depends on stable and experienced teams at the frontline of Children's Services? How experienced and stable can they be if every job involving children carries the risk of being hounded and personally destroyed by the Sun?

Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on November 27, 2008 at 9:22

The Sun Petition seeking accountability over Baby P

ALAN, thanks for your comments about The Sun’s petition. I have minor reservations about the petition, as I put in my original post.

I think any extra money a newspaper may be making from supporting a campaign is not relevant and a distraction. If News International is selling more papers, then its because their coverage of this awful case has struck a chord with many. Even The Sun, of which you appear to disapprove, has to get it right sometimes.

I’m not sure that The Sun can fairly be described as gloating. If they seem prideful of organising the biggest newspaper petition ever, as a media company they are perhaps entitled to some satisfaction in identifying and articulating an issue that has touched the hearts of so many citizens of this country – and made them angry about Haringey failure, once again.

People remember that this is the Borough of Victoria Climbié, the subject of a big government enquiry and the main impetus for the Children’s Act 2004. People remember that a case like this, with a child on the at-risk register, was not to happen again.

Perhaps you think that the signatories to the Sun newspaper's petition have been duped or misled somehow? Sun readers may be amongst your own supporters, so I would hesitate before dismissing them along with The Sun.

This is a matter of great public concern and we must be grateful that we have a free press. Although I’m not a regular Sun reader, I and others are grateful to that paper for speaking up about the Baby P scandal. Certainly we could not expect objective coverage from the propagandist People magazine.

Much information is already in the public domain thanks to the efforts of investigative journalists of many newspapers and little thanks to a secretive council. There is enough damning information already to justify resignations. Another verdict, on the process and on recommendations, will come after the full, open, independent public enquiry that must happen – just as after the death of poor Victoria Climbié.

The characterisation of “witch hunt” is unfortunate. In the middle ages, women accused of witch craft were sometimes tortured to death. Though a total innocent, Baby P was also tortured to death. In the 21st century, in one of the richest parts of the world, in Europe’s biggest city.

In most lines of work, where an employee or a manager does not perform their job adequately, it is no surprise that they are sacked. It’s a fact of life and not something to overly dramatize. It is a matter of making sure that the person fits the job. It shouldn’t be sensationalised as hunting witches, which I think is emotive, unhelpful and even theatrical. The impression is left that jobs and careers at Haringey are more precious than doing everything humanly possible to protect our most vulnerable fellow human beings.

Yes, I read your posts about your three central and overriding concerns. I would have replied at the time but that subject was cut off by the moderator from further direct comment. I thought your concerns were reasonable – as far as they went. I agree that they were not party political but I do not think anyone – including David Cameron – has tried to make party political capital out of the scandal. But I couldn’t help noticing that any hint of (political) accountability – that you recognize in other areas – was absent.

I would not want the difficult job of social worker. But if I did, then I would want the full support of the hierarchy above me. The lack of accountability at the political level, or indeed at any level above the bottom, might lead me to suppose that a difficult job is made worse or impossible. Could that have been a factor in the haemorrhage of staff and reluctance by people to work in Haringey?

The social worker you mentioned appears to have been offered up as a sacrificial lamb after the VC enquiry – and nobody above her level took responsibility. That all blame was heaped on this one individual was never likely to convince or satisfy anyone outside the council. It appears that social workers in the employ of Haringey do not get the support they need – on many levels.

Social workers should not fear making a single mistake if they have the right support from their employer. In the Baby P case, it was not a single mistake but up to 60 (sixty) mistakes and not by a single social worker, but several. And not by social workers alone.

That we need social workers and the job they do – and to do it well – should not obscure the fact that responsibility needs to be taken for all that has gone wrong. I think Haringey is guilty of little short of corporate manslaughter. What has happened is an outrage and in my opinion there needs to be some kind of catharsis in Haringey’s Social Services. It needs to be made clear to all that it is not business as usual and that there truly is a new beginning. I'm sure you're right that stable and experienced teams are needed. And that's what we appear not to have. Whoever performs their jobs must expect scrutiny.

We have had various apologies forced out of the council by the media of which you disapprove. It was reported in the press that not everyone in the majority group was happy with the length of time it took for the council to apologise. At the full council meeting last Monday, at least one majority group councillor was principled enough to question this, although they did not feel strongly enough to vote against the majority group amendment.

We should be united in a resolve not to let this happen for a third time in our Borough – and be prepared to do whatever it takes to safeguard the most defenceless, most vulnerable citizens – even those that cannot vote. I’m sure that there is regret among all councillors about Baby P’s murder. But the council must now take meaningful, corrective steps to demonstrate that this time, it is serious.

As with Victoria Climbié, the council seems to want to pin the blame on social workers near the bottom of the hierarchy for failure that began at the top. Unfortunately for Ms Santry, the Children’s Act 2004 – a product of the Climbié case – provides for individual political responsibility and it seems inevitable that she will go. It would have been better for everyone concerned if this had happened already.

It is not good enough to castigate the media for what has happened. The Borough of Haringey is now world-famous for all the wrong reasons. I know, for example, that thanks to CNN, Haringey’s failure of duty to Baby P is now known in Christchurch in New Zealand. I do not gloat about this or report this with satisfaction. It is a matter of pride to nobody and of shame to all.

Part of the revulsion of ordinary people is the council’s reaction, which lays more stress on job protection than child protection. Even if not everyone is impressed with The Sun’s 1,200,000 petitioners, that number may impress No.10 where they were delivered.

Permalink Reply by Lynne on November 26, 2008 at 22:50

Alan,

We have spoken before, where I found you to be helpful, knowledgable, caring and thought provoking.

In honesty, we really do want an independent public inquiry, afterall as you said and as it was pointed out already, that the ofsted inquiry is not going to look into this particular case but into the process surrounding Baby P's death, and we NEED to find out the facts of this particular case!

Afterall wasn't it true that there were 2 other children with child protection orders living in the same house apart from Baby P? wasn't it the case that there was a registered paedophile also living there going out with a 15 year old runaway? you might understand that this is the second time a child was left to die due to policy/insufficient budgets. Never mind the others who have the misfortune to have Haringey Council as their corporate parent and who cannot speak up for themselves.It is broke.

You also voted against resignations of Santry/Meehan and against a public inquiry at Monday's executive meeting, may be it is what you believed, but I can't help thinking that the party line comes first before people's (even helpless children's) welfare. We really reached a new all time low on Monday evening.

regards

Lynne









I have a great deal of respect for you, but party line

Permalink Reply by John McMullan on November 26, 2008 at 23:02

Alan does not seem to me to be a party-line sort of bloke. I think that's an unfair accusation.

Can we please restrict the use of pedophile to doctors and psychologists? Pedophiles have become the modern witches. Just call them perverts, it's more honest.

Permalink Reply by Lynne on November 26, 2008 at 23:32

John,

It is precisely that Alan Stanton does not seem to be a tow the party line sort of bloke, that his position was all the more surprising on Monday evening. In a similar vote a few years ago in the wake of Victoria Climbie inquiry, I recall faintly that Alan had abstainded but I might be wrong.

If anyone thinks The Sun is not to their taste, please pick up a copy of Private Eye and read 'Rotten Boroughs',

regards

Lynne

Permalink Reply by Liz on November 26, 2008 at 23:42

Although I am sure that Alan will defend his position himself, I would ask that we please do not turn this thread into a discussion of the motivations of individual members of the site, even elected councillors. The thread is about the Sun's petition. If it doesn't remain on that topic and strays into remarks of a more personal nature then we will have to close it
Liz (site admin)

Permalink Reply by Stuart on November 27, 2008 at 11:30

One small point which illustrates exactly why an enquiry was needed - who knew there was a "registered paedophile living there"? Handily, Lynne, you appear to know now. The facts that emerged just from the court case were that NONE of the social workers or health workers knew he was living there. So pointing to this is a classic example of the way politicians and the media are pre-judging the situation without bothering to wait for the true picture to emerge. I would urge all politicians seeking to make political capital out of this (by calling for resignations before any public enquiry has apportioned the blame some politicians are so ready to do right now) to read this post before wielding the power of hindsight:

http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/2008/11/17/a-week-in-the-death-of-...

Permalink Reply by Lydia R on November 27, 2008 at 0:04

Even though I am generally on the side of Clive and Lynne, I am sorry to have to say that I cannot bring myself to sign The Sun's petition. I believe it bays for blood too loudly and that it demands resignations without resort to the facts. On the other hand, I do believe that a public enquiry is absolutely necessary. I was not entirely surprised but I was very disappointed nonetheless when some of the more intelligent and upright councillors voted with their Labour colleagues to oppose the enquiry. I understand that there must have been some pressure -- even if the pressure came from within the individuals themselves as longterm team players -- but nevertheless I was saddened to see honourable people forced into this situation. I was even more dejected by seeing that crew of Labour goons on the other side of the visitors' gallery, applauding their party and trying to drown out the opposition. I know it happened in Soviet Russia and have even studied it but I still cannot understand the mechanism whereby people who go into politics to do good, end up supporting evil in the name of some sort of ultimate goal.

Permalink Reply by Birdy_Too on November 27, 2008 at 9:42

I am anticipating a similar petition from the Sun due to the events in South Yorkshire. It is not the responsibility of the Sun to encourage mobocracy.

Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on November 27, 2008 at 15:02

One man's "mob rule" is another man's peasant revolt. Some people are revolting already: see Tottenham Journal article:

'Remember Baby P' candidate set to fight election
MOUNTING outrage at the lack of a single resignation at Haringey Council over the Baby P scandal has led to a campaign to overthrow the ruling Labour group - and kick out every one of the party's councillors using people power.

(I'm not associated with Mr Delderfield and indeed I do not subscribe to his right-wing (New Britain Party) views, but many will understand their frustration with the council's behaviour, which is without honour.)

Permalink Reply by anastasia on November 27, 2008 at 11:48

I have signed the Sun petition and another one calling for a public inquiry, not because I am a Sun reader or this is the sort of thing I normally do but because I felt united in grief with all the people who are 'baying' because of the pathetic loss of another young life in our sometimes 'Dickensian' Borough.
The Sun has picked up the mood of the people and has articulated this into a petition of sorts, basically calling for change from the top down, which is not altogether an unresonable request under the circumstances.
Having to resort to trial by newspaper is never a good thing but when all systems and due processes have failed and 'a baby gets thrown out with the bathwater', something has to be said and something has to be done about it at the highest level. Historically speaking the British public needs little or no encouragement into mobocracy or indeed even witch hunting, it is our second nature if you recall. Even Haringey Council is not adverse to a little of the same as in the case of 'Nevvie' the whitleblower of the piece and others I could name over the years.
As a lifelong carer of children I can say this, every job involving children does carry serious risks and should never be undertaken lightly. Only very specific type of people are able or have the capacity to deal with children at every level, the children always know who they are and who they are not, but this is not so easy for employers to assess. I would never be sad to see poor quality staff leave the job of caring for children, keeping them on because you cannot think up an alternative childcare plan is not in any way a satisfactory arrangement for the children and could inevitably lead to more trouble than its worth.
To be honest I'm pretty saddened by the amount of money and resources wasted and the lack of thought of what is best for all vulnerable children of concern. I am sure we could have by now afforded to build a first class community 24hr residential preschool/school/learning environment within the Borough where children can go in times of difficulty at any age, volantarily or by refferal where they can get access to 'proven' local carers, educational provision and services. We could probably have even sent some of these children to top boarding schools with all the trimmings.
Look at the case of Alexandra Palace even, it is an ideal venue for children and childrens facilities and yet there has had to be a public campaign to save it from private sale to propery developers, even if if was not for the Council to do this by Act of Parliament. We are not without resources in Haringey, we are just without joined up thinking regarding the many policy issues around Child Protection and Social Service Provisions for young and old alike.
The Geneva Convention(10 priciples)/UN 'Right of the child'(42+articles) is very clear and it is very clear that some children in this Borough are not afforded even these basic human rights which the UK have agreed to. Our service providers, like the rest of us need to think about this and to come up with and implement a Borough wide solution to affording vulnerable children the basics in terms of human rights in joined up thinking, by whatever means necessary.
With the amount of funding they recieve this should really not be left to the lone campaigners or the angry mob, but it is a bit late now.

Permalink Reply by anastasia on November 27, 2008 at 12:51

Ok then, lets put the tar and feathers away for now and wait for the proper authorities to do their thing and sort it out, for everybodies sake.
However let us not be under any delusions here, 'Mob-rule' is what got us where we are today did it not, when angry workers wanted change and they got it, didn't they?.

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