Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
MI5: their current operations & the Finsbury Park Stakeholder Group
IT WILL come as no surprise to anyone, that details of the current operations of M15 are not publicly available.
"Not publicly available" ...
was the official and remarkable description of the status of Minutes of the Finsbury Park Stakeholder group, a body that early in the year, was claimed would ensure that residents have a voice on the future of events in our park [q.v.]
I made a further Member's enquiry on 31 July; Councillor enquiries are supposed to provide a quicker response than a regular FoI request. Following a delay of one month – that included discussion with the Chief Executive of Haringey Council – I managed to extract copies of the formerly top-secret Minutes (attached).
I hope that in future we can avoid the nonsense of restricting public access to this group, that may yet benefit from more scrutiny and transparency.
Clive Carter
Haringey Councillor
Liberal Democrat Party
Tags for Forum Posts: finsbury park, finsbury park stakeholder group
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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As usual, Chris, you've entirely missed the point. Let me try one last time.
Please reread and reflect on the heading Clive gave to this discussion. Then look at the secret documents Clive has now squeezed out of Haringey about the Finsbury Park Stakeholder Group. See anything there which will threaten the safety of the Realm? Or embarrass a minor member of the Royal Family? Or cause a minute's worry, loss of sleep, or even a rueful smile to anyone at all?
No, neither do I. It's practical stuff about provision of toilets and park entrances etc etc. isn't it? So why was it secret? Why are minutes of some other council committees and bodies kept secret?
For a couple of years your explanations have been much the same as mine used to be. That good people, well intentioned people at or near the bottom of the pecking order were doing their best. But they were stymied by having to work within an unnecessarily over-bureaucratic system.
A fair summary so far?
As I understood your optimistic outlook, these good people in a fundamentally benign and well-intentioned organisation had managers who unfortunately, were behind the times technologically. They hadn't yet cottoned-on to the myriad benefits of open systems, open data, and Open Source software. So they needed to catch up? Am I right? I expect that if I search through your posts I'll find mentions of other stuff with names I don't understand like "thin". A sunny upland of new tech solutions to sad old problems.
Now here is where we part company completely. You still seem to believe that the people in charge of Haringey Council share your and my progressive aims. They really want to do the right things; the sensible, transparent, open things. And will do so if only enough nice, friendly well-intentioned people explain things to them. Show them the way. Using reasoned argument and evidence.
It doesn't yet seem to have occurred to you, Chris, that they don't want to. Aren't going to. Unless and until they're forced to.
This is a dysfunctional council with a failed political leadership. That's how I see it.
I'm sure that as Claire Kober and her chums see it, the Council dysfunctions just fine! Giving her a seat up on the carousel where the music plays and the painted ponies in her "cabinet" go round and round and up and down.
Secrecy is part of it; it's the default position. So is endless spin and propaganda. Plus lack of curiosity, and a peculiar willed ignorance. And seeing any challenge or dissension as disloyalty.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on
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One difference between us may be that I have been paid to work in large organisations automating processes profitably - I've seen silos and fiefdoms - you name it! People do not like change and, if they have any power, they often use it to block things. I've worked for governments and multi-nationals in several different countries, notably the US and France.
I've been around long enough to know what can happen and what can not, and that people are pretty much the same wherever you go - as Bill Clinton said, the bosses get the goldmine, the workers get the shaft
Let me ask you:
Do you accept that Clare Kober does not see The Chief Exec's emails unless he chooses to show them to her?
How about his documents - do you think there are any that she has not seen?
Now lets take contracts - hundreds of millions of pounds, as you know - has any Cllr ever negotiated a single service level agreement do you think?
The Chief Exec runs the Council - the Cllrs set policy. The policy does trickle down, but it's joined by a river of central govt policy and the 'standards' imposed by the civil service, so can often end up as a backwater. Name me a policy that was not executed by Council Officers - they do all the work. Now tell me that Council Officer influence over policy is negligible. If they don't like the policy, it will not work. If they want the policy changed, it can get changed.
Let's take Finsbury Park. Who decided to make £750k for LBH and take a 10% cut as a 'management' fee on top of the salaries officers are already getting for doing a job they have to do anyway? Bet you no councillor was even aware of what was going on until afterwards, and probably still don't 'get' it and probably cannot change it whatever they think.
Did they set the policy that led to Parks being treated as commercial surfaces? Well, sort of, but mainly it was the nasty party that did that - the right wing smaller state bollocks. so, what part did LBH Cllrs play in it?
The issue is one of corporate culture - you seem to think the Cllrs are able to set the culture - I think they are not - it's the Chief Exec that tries to do that - it's hard but that's what they mainly do.
So, when a local person gets really bad bin service, a Cllr can add to the stink but who'se fault is it really? It's a well-run contract where things go smoothly. Cllrs have no control over how well a contract runs.
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You're amazing, Chris. A whole speculative story to "prove" that the Council Leadership has next to no power and that the Government and senior officers call all the shots. Do you seriously believe that a Council Leader with a majority of 48 to 9 and the powers and personal patronage which Claire Kober has relentlessly accumulated, is unwillingly overpowered by a Chief Executive and his overpaid consultant hirelings?
Your innocence reminds me of Russian peasants in the 19th Century who were said have the saying: "If only the little father knew". The "little father" - Batiushka - was the Tsar. With the implication that it was the nasty officials, or maybe the nastier Cossacks, who were wholly to blame for everything which was wrong.
Maybe you see our Dear Leader as a a little Tsaritsa (or Tsarina) under the malign influence of Nick Walksputin?
But don't take it from me. As I've suggested to you before, ask people among Labour Party insiders who is actually making key decisions. And how much power Claire Kober has over even day-to-day decisions.
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Permalink Reply by Cllr Emina Ibrahim on
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Isn't it rather interesting that Ed Butcher and former Lib Dem leader Richard Wilson didn't tell their a colleague anything ? Also considering the two former councillors for Harringay Ward felt Finsbury Park was such an important issue, failed to attend any meetings.
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Permalink Reply by John D on
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Also interesting that it seems that none of the Harringay councillors attended the planning meeting on the Hornsey Station monstrosity but apparently thought that a back-slapping session was more important.
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Permalink Reply by Karen Alexander on
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Emina, I am sure that you are finding out the great responsibility and huge workload involved in being a councillor. In the case of these meetings we decided (because of equally important commitments) that it was sensible for just our SG colleagues to attend having had much discussion beforehand. This is Councillors working as a team for residents, I'm sure you will agree that our track record confirms the success of this.
Quite telling that despite our current Harringay cllrs promising more transparency on this it was actually Cllr Carter who diug deep enough to uncover and present the minutes for residents. This is what residents expect from their local representatives and deserve nothing less.
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
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Hi Karen, I was always impressed with the advertising slogan of rental car company Avis in 1960 (70s?) America. Hertz was the biggest, so Avis' advertising agency came up with:
We're No.2, so we try harder!
I believe there's a significant difference between trying to get the Minutes and getting the Minutes. Harringay's current local Councillors may try hard and mean well. But in the final analysis, they will not wish to make waves and rock the boat.
Some of the current Majority Group councillor crop (possibly not in Harringay Ward) may be more focused on becoming an MP, rather than serving local residents.
I'd be interested to hear from any local residents who think that the Minutes of the FPSG – like details of MI5's current operations – should not be publicly available.
Clive Carter
Haringey Councillor
Liberal Democrat Party
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Karen
Why did he have to dig deep when you had the minutes and could have told him. Also why would you delegate responsibility for a park in Harringay ward to Cllrs for another ward. Finsbury Park is in it's entirety in Harringay and Tottenham constituency. Why did you allow those elected in another ward and another constituency to lead ?
Emine
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For God's sake Emina, take your nose out of other people's business and attend to your own.
Did you attend the pre-planning meeting on the Hornsey station eyesore ?
Why have we not seen the Minutes of the June meeting of the FPSG meeting ?
What is happening about the missing 7.5 T signage on Turnpike Lane ?
Your obsession with the motes in other parties' eyes only draws attention to the beam in your own.
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Hi John
I think the aggressive and personalised tone of your posts under every comment I make on this site has been noted. Please refrain from this behaviour which has really become quite disturbing. If Clive and Karen wish to peddle this kind of stuff then they are sensible enough I assume to accept being challenged. I accept being challenged and respond to questions and will continue to do so. Harringay ward certainly is my business. What a strange comment. For the record I won't be doing it for the sake of God it is for the sake of Harringay residents who expect their councillors to turn up for meetings which relate to the ward they were elected to represent. Perhaps your comment should be directed at Clive who is the elected member for Highgate.
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And somehow your attacks on Clive and Karen, Ed Butcher and Richard Wilson are not " personalised " ?
I agree that Harringay Ward IS your business. So why don't you answer the three questions above ?
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No John they are not - people cannot post these claims and not expect to be questioned. Asking someone a question directly is not personal, telling them to keep "their"nose out is personal in tone. It is not Karen or Clive's personal business which meetings they attend nor mine, it is residents business. Of course there will be times when due to clashes apologies need to be sent. However it is slightly disingenuous to say the least to then post conspiracy theories about things you were either privy too or had the opportunity to shape but didn't take it. I am really open to questions about meetings I have attended and as I previously said, after the last meeting I specifically requested that the issue was put on the area forum agenda. As a result the lead officer and cabinet member attended and updated residents.
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