Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
How much does an ASBO cost?
Remember the nine young men moved on from Duckett's Common with the full force of the law? That didn't hurt too much did it? Possibly two of them ended up mugging people in the passage but other than that, all good. Right?
How much do we think that ASBO cost?
| Enquiry Agents/Couriers | £699 |
| Court Fees | £4,400 |
| Legal Costs | £41,665 |
| Counsel's fees | £28,735 |
Total cost: £75,499
To keep nine young men, two of them minors, away from a park. This was not asked for by a resident, this was done by someone in the council and approved by Nick Walkley.
The original discussion of this ASBO was here.
Tags for Forum Posts: asbo
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Iona on
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Aren't they something ridiculous like 3 grand....would that be per person in this case??? hmmmmm...
I'll go for £25,000 all in !
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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The legal fees alone for the ASBO on those nine young men were more than £75,000. The total cost was probably more like £80,000 which is almost enough to run a youth centre for a year. Paid for by Haringey Council.
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Permalink Reply by Seema Chandwani on
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Hi Tris
Whilst I appreciate you have been honest to state "youth policy is not a subject you know anything about", I think this maybe the reason why you "don't understand John's point".
As a society, especially as diverse as ours (not just ethnically but wealth, mobility etc) I accept some people in our community will have issues far greater than others. What allows us to be a civil society is how we deal with those issues.
I understand fully why people are upset that there are youths mugging people at knifepoint in parks and alleys. I too have been robbed in the street at 2pm in broad daylight and it's something that makes me very over cautious and paranoid two years on.
I do believe we all would like to live in a society where this does not happen.
However, in order for us to achieve close to that ideal, there needs to be a longer term strategy which is effective. I don't believe ASBOs, which ban a group from an area makes any sense. The young men have obvious issues and have just moved elsewhere in the borough, outside of their banned zones with the same behaviour.
If these young men were on their way to University and had a life to look forward to and build, they would, like 99% of young people in the UK not be involved in such activity. Likewise if they had a job, training or some sort of obtainable future. When any human being, young or old has nothing to live for, they value very little as their lives have little value.
I personally would like £75,000 to be spent on giving assistance to young people like these boys to get a life. That extends beyond just having a basketball court and swings in a park. Services to help young people like these boys and professionals who can turn lives around of young people exist. It is a choice whether the council or gov wish to use [and save] our money to serve this purpose.
ASBOs have only stopped this group being around 6-8 roads around Ducketts Common. It has not given them a job, training, help to get an education or to find out if there are any mental health issues or problems with parental upbringing. So it has not changed their behaviour, just means their behaviour now happens elsewhere.
I really understand as someone who has worked with young people for 16 years, I come from a different perspective. I had a 13 year old boy in Haringey who I worked with who used to be involved in violent street robberies, I thought he needed a beating too, then I met his mum and visited their house. It became clear this boy was not robbing to buy computer games or trainers, but to feed his mum's heroin habit.
Of course this is not the case with all young people, however I feel there are always reasons (not excuses) for behaviour and I wish to live in a society where we have help available.
In this case, I do feel the £75,000 would've been better spent either having parks staff to make everyone feel safe or youth workers in the park to work both with this group, other groups above these 9 and make the park feel safe for everyone by having a presence.
In an area like Haringey, I would prefer this sort of strategy to prevent crime, so that our Police can divert their resources to bigger crimes that take place in our borough, such as organised crime, prostitution, domestic violence, rape etc.
Prior to the cuts, the youth service had a dedicated team working on estates, parks and high crime areas, soley to prevent using ASBOs as they were too costly. I am being assured that such teams are being currently developed to make a comeback in the new year.
Furthermore, John D's point below is interesting as he seems to be referring to the adults who drink, swear, urinate, swear at passers by and sleep in the park. This ASBO was not for them.
However, I appreciate not everyone would share my holistic view on how we spend council money, especially some rich lawyers from Chelsea who get paid our money to legally process ASBOs.
JOHN: Can you private message me and let me know where you got that breakdown from.
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Thank you.
Yes it has been trialled in the UK and Haringey was one of those areas, the programme was called 'Challenge & Support'. It was a Goverment programme from Labour which ceased under the Tories. The programme demostrated high levels of success in getting young people the multi agency support they needed and to avoid young people slipping through the net or off the radar of people like social services etc.
Once they got the support they were entitled to, they were then able to start building a life and going to college/training or working.
However, 'Challenge & Support' was an extension to normal 'street based youth work', a practice youth workers have been practising since the industrial revolution.
In street based youth work, you go out on the streets where you know or are told young people are hanging around possibly misbehaving (shopping centres, parks, estates) and you find solutions. Sometimes you could do a structured project in the park, sometimes you'd ask the local Vicar if you could use the church hall once a week to meet the kids and there were two mobile youth centres one a converted transit van and one a converted single decker bus, inside were sofa's, internet access, TV etc so staff could place one of them into an area.
I appreciate the word speculate, but youth work has been around for decades. It is one of those professions where it's value by the outside world is only recognised when it's gone (i.e. rise in crime, pregnancy, drugs, unemployment, gangs etc). Young people and campaigners warned this council and councils up and down the country what would happen if you cut youth services.
In a place like Haringey, a lot of young people have no garden, no space at home due to overcrowding and their parents can't afford ballet, football, piano etc after school. A lot of parents are not even home, to know their kids are out on the streets. I know some kids that hardly saw parents due to the hours they worked and practically raised themselves. It's vitally important they have a place to go, or they'll stay on the street.
Also important they have adults they can talk to or they'll seek guidance from each other and then you get "you can't get pregnant if you have sex the first time with a guy" type of advice.
But I know the council are reinstating it's youth services following a cabinet report which was agreed in Sept, so I am calm. But £75,000 would've paid for 3 youth workers every evening for 2 years to be in ducketts common, and I wish it was an option managers had the foresight to have taken, especially as they've known about reports of behaviour since Feb 2012 by this group.
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Permalink Reply by John D on
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So. John, you would rather let them carry on with their anti-social bahaviour, swearing, drinking in a place where alcohol is banned, intimidating passers by and disturbing peaceable residents and users of the Common ?
Or do you have a solution ?
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I think it's pretty obvious that I would spend that money on the youth services we used to have. That seemed to work.
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Spend the money in the local economy (youth workers) or spend it with some wealthy lawyers who presumably do not live in Tottenham. Even if both things have the same outcome the former seems a no brainer.
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FPR - Can you cite the evidence you have obtained that claim from?
From my knowledge, there is little evidence to prove this theory. In countries where there is capital punishment, which I guess is the ultimate of all punishments, crime is still very high compared to areas where there are lesser punishments.
Countries/areas with lower crime, tend to be places which have better wealth distribution and better co-ordination of support services.
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Permalink Reply by Malcolm on
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Actually the scientific evidence is that it is the probability of swift punishment that deters crime, not its severity. Which means it's not a straight cost/benefit as you suggest.
See for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterrence_(legal)
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Oh so like puppy training. Funny that...
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Hi Malcolm
Although I don't use wikipedia as a source, there were a few nuggets in there:
"Research has shown that increasing the severity of a punishment does not have much effect on crime"
Couldn't find the part about swift punishment and if I missed it, it was not in the context of Child Development.
Thanks.
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LOL!
But the actual link you gave me said the opposite to what you are saying...!
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