Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
The health of the Euro. Discuss.
The Euro will return to the intensive care ward by October at the latest.
Tags for Forum Posts: Euro
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on
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I believe that governments should be able to decide their own fiscal policy and that is what the Euro does NOT allow which is why I support us remaining outside the zone.
As for predictions of its demise - I don't think so but I do think that those countries that remain within it will have to move closer to a single super state to make it work (so in effect the Euro becomes a national rather than international currency)
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
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The comments of Mr Bin of Berlin yesterday remind me of the statements sometimes made about a national leader where the main purpose is PR and the maintenence of apparent stability.
When a KIng/President/Prime Minister has just had an operation or has been taken seriously ill, the official press will report that the leader is perfectly fine; just played a round of golf; has a cold or has never felt better.
It therefore comes as a shock to the populace when the leader has to step down, step aside or dies.
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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on
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Michael .. your argument is flawed because as we all have seen over the last six months or so, Governments are not able to decide their own fiscal policy at all because they are all subject to the power of the unregulated speculators.. (actually gamblers or markets as some still refer to them) who think they should be able dictate what democratic elected governments have to do and have a right to continue what some rightly consider immoral.
And not only that, the UK is hardly an exemplary case of how to run an economy.. and the British government sadly used the situation to try and cover up the woes of the British economy in the public mind .. blaming much on to the so-called Eurozone crisis.. a crisis thought up in London and on Wall Street
You all continually complain about bookmakers in HoL land , and then many of you trot off to work in a sector which is no different.. and worse still, to which the government is beholden to and not prepared to regulate.
The Euro is designed to be the currency of the single market in Europe.. and I personally would be certainly happy to kick out of the EU those countries that want to benefit from that single market, but are not prepared to invest in or put their money where their mouth is. Of course, the EU has something to do with common ideals and morals, freedom of movement for it's citizens, as well as standardisation in some areas.. It can't in fact be right for Germans or Danes to have to wait to 67 for their pension and for those in Greece to get it at 55. And there have to be general standards of tax collection..
The old chestnuts of it not being a good idea having 'one currency to fit all countries' is exactly that. The same thing happens on a smaller scale within in the UK where GDP and wealth are poles apart in Central London compared with places, say like County Durham. By following that argument, how can the same fiscal policy good for both of them too? Just speaking the same language surely can't be the only reason for keeping them together?
No, the last year has been in my opinion a phoney war .. or an attempt by some to attack the Euro before it gets too strong to damage.. which by being the second currency in the world, it IMO already is.
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I accept some of your points but I can't see how being in the Euro would have made the financial crisis in the UK any less difficult. In fact Euro countries like Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal and Ireland have suffered far worse.
I also agree with your point about the poor regulation of the financial markets in the UK but joining the Euro won't change that, only the political will of government can and Cameron is too far under the duvet to change anything.
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The Euro is truly a great idea ... in principle. A single market trading within the same currency, no currency traders making an undeserved, parasitical income, easier travel, easy price comparisons and the promotion of healthy competition.
What's not to like?
In practice, and in order to work in at least the medium term, the euro depends absolutely on a set of conditions ... which are not and have not been present. They're unlikely to become present either. Over time, tensions and small differences become worse, not better.
The last 18 months have been a series of crises, with interludes of measures that are touted as final solutions. Does any one imagine that the last fudge is going to stick together beyond October?
The utopian socialists who continue to promote the euro-nirvana ought to first examine the harsh austerity imposed on Greece and the cruel and high rates of unemployment in both that country and Spain – and then examine their consciences.
The Euro might have come about naturally over time (many decades). The artificial forcing-of-the-pace of adoption that we've seen may wreck the notion for generations. It will always remain a good idea in principle.
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I'm afraid Greece (or it's political classes and wealthy who have avoided paying taxes for decades, if ever) deserves all they get.. and BTW, since when have you concerned yourself with the lower classes and how they are being sucked dry to support the speculators based in London... ?
And still you don't answer the question as to why, even though outside the Euro, the British economy is on a par with Italy's .. with rising unemployment.. your governnment friends are doing exactly the same as Greece is being forced to do..
As for Spain, they tried to run a British style property based 'road to affluence' which won't work in Europe.. Ireland tried the same .. and what did they get ? Right the same old British style 'Boom and Bust'. what do your tory friends like to call them? Cycles!
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Stephen, where's the love?
The euro was supposed to make us all love one another more.
We already knew the contempt in which you hold Britain, but Greece and Spain on which you now pour scorn, are your brother Euro countries. Ireland also seems to miss out on the euro community spirit.
Please spare a thought for their unemployed when you've finished admiring the Grand Euro project. Instead of promoting greater brotherhood, the Euro seems to have promoted enmity, and especially between Greece and Germany to the extent that its rekindled memories of the German occupation in WW2. Surely this wasn't part of the Eurocrat plan?
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Angela Merkel - utopian socialist. Hmm?
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You see Clive, that's exactly why I, as you say 'scorn' the UK.. Because when the times get tough it reverts to this 1940s 'fighting a war'- 'mouth with no trousers' modus.
I can assure you that although now 67 years ago .. Germans and their politicians (apart from a few idiots) know exactly know the responsibilty they carry for what previous generations carried out in the name of the country. It is exactly because of what happened that Germany still goes that 'extra mile' to pay it's way in regenerating other countries. Because of that most others see the German model of the economy as the economy to follow - not the British one and they clearly voted that way recently.
Whether you like it or loathe it, you are going to have to come to terms with the fact that Germany is the most important European player.. is quietly told by the USA, that it is it's most important partner in Europe - not Britain!.. Does more trade and has more Airline connections with with China than the UK and is in the position of developing, manufacturing and exporting more than the rest of Europe put together.
I actually think that maybe envy is the reason why there is always this animosity towards the country which shows an incredible ability to create and manufacture things .. has shown in the last twenty years that it can rebuild a bankrupt country with 14 million inhabitants.. giving the majority a standard of living they didn't have previously.. Many old communists will foam at the lips and deny that - but it is the truth.
The former Communist East Germany now has had for nearly eighteen years a more modern telephone /Internet system than the UK.. most of it's city centres gleam .. unlike Britains faltering city centres . Transport infrastructure has been updated and unemployment has been falling for five years and is now at a twenty year low and still falling. Germans have also made the bold decision to turn away from nuclear power and are hoping through hard work to continue to lead the world on solar energy production, although the Chinese are trying to get ahead on that too!
Britain finds itself in the enviable position of being in a single market where it now can 'input and influence nothing' - in a negative spiral and as long as it can't be the leading country in Europe, it will just be a thorn in the side of the others.
That's the real problem, which the Daily Mail and all the rest seriously miscalculate.. Nobody here in Germany or in France or wherever else really takes the UK seriously any more.. They consider the UK to be a backward looking country .. 'did great things - once' still trying to keep influence by fighting colonial wars and that's about it!
Currently Germany is building up a strong political coaltion with with Poland, similar to that with France and I expect by 2030 to see very strong France-Germany-Poland connections and strange as it may seem to British commentators, the younger generation of Europe don't want to go back to a Europe of impassable borders.. That is the British dilema - nobody is really interested in going back to a pre-1957 Europe.
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Stephen its telling that an invitation to discuss the health of the Euro is taken to be a topic about the German economy.
There is no doubt that the euro has been good for the German economy, which anyway had a remarkable post-war performance that nobody is denying, certainly not me.
But the Euro is about more than the German economy: its about the other countries that are doing okay and others that are doing either quite badly or are threatening to join that group.
Surely there are some in Berlin who believe that the Euro is about more than the mighty German economy? Surely some Germans can see the negative effects the euro is having on poorer countries, who probably want to devalue (gradually and automatically) but are unable to do so, because they are locked into this "burning house", without escape?
I find it hard to believe that most Germans are so one-eyed about the euro that they think only of its benefits for their own economy. Perhaps I'm wrong.
The countries on which you heap contempt decided, perhaps unwisely, to join the Euro and they now find that, not only can they not devalue, they cannot adjust interest rates and they cannot adjust their money supply.
The unemployment rates of Spain and Greece are truly awful and social cohesion cannot be taken for granted in any of the economies where the rigid Euro prevents devaluation.
Perhaps like Conservative ex-Chancellor Norman Lamont, the Euro-philes believe that rising unemployment and recession is a price worth paying, in this case, in order to advance the grand euro project.
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You wouldn't believe it .. but the Euro isn't the big topic of conversation in Germany that you and the BBC would like it to be..
The Spanish unemployment as well as the Greek has nothing to do with their being within the Euro.. in as much as if they had handled their economies well they wouldn't be in the same boat as Britain..
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and Yes, the BBC will always dig out a few who'll say the opposite - but that's because they are 'pushing the agenda' and not 'reporting what actually happened'.. - having been doing so for quite some time.. and it seems by reading your comments that many have fallen for it..
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