Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Why is Crouch End high street so much cleaner than Green Lanes?
I recently noted that people queue for buses in Crouch End but not Green Lanes and wondered why.
On my most recent excursion I noticed how markedly cleaner Crouch End is on a Saturday morning compared to Green Lanes and again wondered why?
Both are very busy on a Saturday morning (Crouch End arguably more so). Both have lots of cafes and restaurants. Both have bus stops.
But Green Lanes is littered with rubbish.
Why is it so?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Oli Brown
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You should visit if you haven't already. It's a lovely and fascinating place. The people, food, and environment are excellent.
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Permalink Reply by Liz
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I lived there for two years. It has many wonderful aspects not least its art, film culture, and much beautiful architecture but don’t romanticise its society. Like any other culture it has problems that only reveal themselves once you live there a while. People clean up their public spaces because they are taught to do this from kindergarten. Every afternoon, the children sweep and clean their own classrooms all the way up to high school. It becomes ingrained in them. All good you may say but don’t mistake a clean society for an irreproachable one. Many of the systems that are in place are systems of control and conformism. I adored Japan and the people who I met there but I also saw for myself how hard it was to be different. Sometimes in order to see the strengths of your own country, you have to travel far away from it.
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Yes, some other aspects of Japanese society might not appeal to everyone. But in general it is a very successful country and the social conformity around cleanliness and collective responsibility for one's environment is something that we would do well to encourage especially among new arrivals who may not otherwise know what is expected of them.
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It’s actually not clear why there has been such a massive increase in littering since the 1960s. There are theories of course, but the problem goes back certainly to the 1970s and maybe even further back. Laws and campaigns against littering began in the1930s and continued through to the present day. There is clearly a longstanding problem since governments don’t make laws or pay ABBA to come and do public information films if nobody if doing the thing they are legislating against. Some have blamed the increase on the rise of “no such thing as society” politics which meant people felt a licence to do as they pleased without caring about other opinions (some might argue that has always been the English way). The rise in fast food, eating in the street and in cars leads to stuffed bins which if not emptied quickly lose the litter to the wind or the fox. Rogue landlords who game the system or don’t provide the correct facilities will add to the problem. Even that nice middle class house of students will leave things in the street because this isn’t really where they live (true story).
I’ve been a “new arrival” in more than one country and yes it’s helpful to know how to dispose of waste and how to behave in public spaces - people didn’t actually tell me and it took weeks for me to work it out, especially as I didn’t know who to ask. A desire to have a neat explanation ignores both the history of environmental crime in this country whilst absolving yourself of a need to find workable solutions.
Incidentally, Japan isn’t a “successful” society as they have a ticking demographic timebomb and are likely to struggle to sustain themselves in the future. People aren’t having children in an aging society. Whatever success they had in the past will soon be lost. -
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan
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Liz there is a world of difference between you as a new arrival in Japan and a refugee as a new arrival in Japan. Which could be why Japan is sending their refugees back.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson
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I think footfall is an important consideration. Anyone who has been to Camden Town and Green Lanes on a Sunday afternoon can see a similarity - huge numbers of visitors. The difference I think is that Camden have a plan where there is a comprehensive clean from the Stables Market to the tube station and up to the top of Parkway. An army of cleaners hit the area and by the evening it’s clean. As Green Lanes has become a visitor destination it needs a similar approach that includes the side streets. The most persistent littering I see at the junction of my street with GL is takeaway food waste.
What seems to be missing from this discussion are ideas for a solution.
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As a bit of an addendum I found some figures from a few years ago that estimate the daily footfall on Green Lanes to be around 20,000 on busiest days. It quoted a Haringey report which I can’t trace so I’m not able to post a link.
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton
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Michael Anderson, please don't underestimate your own practical contributions to this discussion.
Only three hours ago you described Camden "where there is a comprehensive clean from the Stables Market to the tube station and up to the top of Parkway."
Haringey simply needs the money and the staff.Liz Ixer again reminded us of the voluntary effort put in by a citizen group, in reporting dumped waste etc. My original memory is of a successful scheme suddenly shut down. (Liz, do you know if it was ever written up?)
The days are racing till the May elections. A perfect time to find potential candidates strolling along our streets gathering votes. And surely the best opportunity to draw their attention to the rubbish problem if that's a priority of yours. I suggest huge warm grins if they ring your bell. Then say: "It's nice of you Party People to call round with your grinning leaflets. But could you please spare ten minutes for some brisk steps along the street from waste pile to waste pile. We'll consider a similar length stroll to vote for you on Polling Day in Merry May.
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter
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Haringey simply needs the money and the staff.
Haringey Council has money but have all but lost control of salaries near the top. National Pay Scales are blamed, but this racket is unlikely to be reigned by the New Labour Government.
In London, our council has the largest number of employees—or among the most—who are paid six-figure salaries. The number is about 40 staff who are paid between £100,000 and c.£200,000 p.a.
Annual pension contributions are real money with real benefit. If one includes them, then for example, the Director of Culture benefits by around £195,000 p.a. This reflects the value that the leadership places on Bread & Circuses. It's easy to spend other people's money and no one seems to care about this profligacy.
The leadership might claim they pay to get the best, but the massive wage bill at the top is not always reflected in stellar muncipal performance. The massive bill for "senior" managers often reflects how much it takes to attract staff to work for this council … at all.
The quantum of taxes poured into the six-figure club means that there is less money available to employ more staff at the lower end.
This top-heavy council does need more staff: doing practical stuff that residents can see. The whole system needs reform.
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As far as I know, there was no evaluation of the programme. We were switched from Environment to Enforcement and started going on walkabouts to identify problems, losing the original draw which was the “green” nature of the programme. Then they tried to get us to work with the police which was very far from the original remit of education and discussing solutions to the problems of environmental crimes in our areas. Then, without warning it was shut down (but at least they didn’t want the tea towel back). The council may have other ways to engage now but with no more area assemblies (problematic though they were at times) or community volunteering programmes that I’m aware of (except those in parks), it makes it much harder for people to feel part of the solution.
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Thanks again, Liz.
I felt this community volunteer initiative had something organic about it. And like other voluntary associations would want to stay active and engaged but only as long as residents' interest and energy persisted.
I also have the hope that if the Green Party has a strong representation in May's new Council then something like this might be in tune with their thinking.
Perhaps as well, the Greens and green-minded socialists may want to see a fresh relaunch of the Scrutiny Committees tackling projects with practical aims.
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@johnmcmullan - a disingenuous question as you know. Japan has never been keen on any new arrivals be they workers or refugees. They also “sent me back” after two years as well. Very few foreigners are “encouraged to stay”. So, no not really. There’s not much difference because Japan doesn’t encourage immigration. Of course they have a demographic ticking timebomb which means that they may cease to function as a successful economic society in a few decades.
But this has nothing to do with litter and is taking us off track. Japan was used as an example of a clean society and it undoubtedly is. Extrapolating to this country is pointless - we are two very different countries with very different histories - and is leading us very far from the point.
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