Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
"LTNs are popular, effective and here to stay"
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/may/15/ignore-myths-low-traf...
"The myths of freedom for the motorist – painted vividly in advertisements that show Land Rovers cruising through completely empty city centres – must make room for the real-life and realisable freedom of kids to breathe cleaner air in their playgrounds, people to walk and cycle with less risk, and for all of us to get to where we need to go without being stuck in congestion."
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Barbara
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Clive... you said "My feeling is that the assertions of feeling unsafe is made by those who want to oppose low traffic neighbourhoods on any grounds"...
Your "feeling" ?....you've just said that you need evidence not feeling...so where is your evidence?
I can see this has attracted the usual pack who seek to decry the experience of women. For us who have lived her for some time we have a different perspective.
It's convenient to right us off as "the petrol heads" of your imagination. But that has nothing to do with this ! It looks like a rant to be honest. You haven't addressed my concerns.
You live in society so respect other's opinions please.
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter
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Barbara, thanks for taking the feelings bait!
My feelings are no more evidenced that anyone else's feelings. However, I do suspect that assertions of feeling unsafe are made by those, including some women. who seek to oppose low traffic neighbourhoods on any grounds.
Let's get some facts in the open; my feeling is that you may be part of the minority of car owners in the Borough. If so, how many cars do you own?
I feel you should declare any interest that you may have.
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Permalink Reply by HoL Site Admin
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Clive my feeling is that your line with Barbara is not helping the debate. Can't you take what Barbara says at face-value? It may very well be that the absence of an LTN makes her feel safer. There's no need to assume therefore that she's an irresponsible car-owner. Who knows, maybe like this car owner, she walks and rides public transport pretty much everywhere and only clocks up 2,00 miles a year. Just accept what Barbara says as a learning about the LTN debate and move on. Hammering at one person on one issue and making assumptions without good basis weakens your case and increases the sense of that the debate for some on this issue on both sides is close to religious fanaticism rather than reasoned argumentation.
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HUGH, I'm not sure what you think would help the debate. I "feel" that evidence might help. I expect that Barbara is capable of responding by herself and I hope you would accept that "moving on" should not involve stifling "debate".
Before decision-making meetings at the council, the sound and established practice is to declare (any) interests. In my view, there are too many cars in urban areas and car-ownership is a relevant interest in this "debate".
This is about private interests versus public interests.
I do not assume that Barbara is even a car owner, which is why I think those opposed to LTNs should make clear whether or not they own a car or cars. It is possible that Barbara is entirely sincere in her personal feelings. However, there are women who do favour LTNs, yet I note that Barbara implies that she speaks on behalf of all women.
The debate should be about (council) policy, rather than anecdotes. I respect data, evidence and solid argument.
—Declaration: a former car and motorcycle owner!
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Clive: Can't speak for anyone else, but for what it's worth here's my declaration of interest:
I'm not a petrolhead, closet or otherwise – I'm not now nor have ever been a car owner as I can't drive. I use public transport (and minicabs, thanks to a back injury). I opposed the Haringey LTNs because I believe they force more traffic onto major roads, especially GL and West Green Road, which impedes buses, causes more pollution and slows journeys. Haringey has failed to introduce the mitigation measures it promised. My thoughts on the St Ann's LTN re safety and quietness are in a previous post. The experience of Bounds Green when Enfield created an LTN on their side of the borough boundary showed that traffic "evaporation" was a myth, as all the traffic went to the Haringay side instead, so I suggest that one of the central claims for LTNs is not credible.
You don't have to be a car owner to think LTNs don't solve the problem.
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Council documents on parking in this context:
Their least useful document in this context (the Strategy absent a meaningful strategy)
Their most useful (or least useless) is 51-page pdf: the Footway Parking Cabinet Report
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You don't have to be a car owner to think LTNs don't solve the problem.
I agree, and we seem both to agree that there is in fact a problem.
The name of the problem, is that there are too many cars. Far more than than the Victorian roads were built to cope with. Or pedestrians, or cyclists. It might help the debate if everyone would accept this simple truth.
I would expect car-owners are among those who are less likely to acknowledge this. Even if they might privately accept there are too many cars, then they might will-the-end (less traffic) but are unlikely to will-the-means-to-the-end. Or any means at all.
I have seen insincerity by LTN opponents due to this cognitive-dissonance. I have witnessed a mob of howling anti-LTN fanatics who closed down a meeting of Haringey Full Council. Some have committed criminal damage.
To illustrate—and disregarding traffic crossing north-south—if car ownership were a tenth of what it is now, then there might be no need for low traffic neighbourhoods.
In my view, Haringey Council is one of the handful of most transport-retarded Boroughs in London.
Over many years, the council has unwittingly worsened the problem of too many cars, by trying unwisely to accommodate unlimited increases in car ownership, by seeking to provide parking even if that is across half the width of pedestrians' pavement.
After years of pandering to car-owners, the council now finds itself in a bind. There is a lack or absence of political will to make progress. Those who best understood these issues have been side-lined.
There is a lack of political will either locally or nationally to thin car ownership in congested London. The PM says his government is on the side of drivers and there is no reason to suppose that the current local council leader believes anything different.
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