Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Would Harringay ward be better served by having an independent councillor?
So in this post I asked if it was a good thing to have a cabinet member in your ward. I think the answer is, depends on the councillor. I guess talented people prepared to toe the party line are going to get into the cabinet. That said there are almost certainly some very talented people out there who don't always toe the party line.
So now I want to know is if, especially given the status of Harringay as a swing ward, we would be better served by having an independent councillor among the three representatives we send to River Park House.
There are three possible outcomes for Haringey after May the 6th
- Labour retain over all control with at least 29 representatives.
- The Liberal Democrats take control of the council.
- Both parties end up with less than 29 representatives and therefore no overall control.
In situations one and two an independent councillor would possibly be ineffective but I really don't know (does anyone else?). In situation three it could be more interesting and beneficial for Harringay residents to have an independent among our three representatives.
I'm really beginning to see that it boils down to the person, not their party. Once elected a party representative owes their allegiance to their party first and their constituents second and often enough their colours will change depending on how? they are treated.
More crowd sourcing, what do people think? I'm especially interested in what our potential Labour and Lib Dem representatives think.
PS For local election geeks, this site is quite fun.
Tags for Forum Posts: 2010 local elections, election2010, independentcouncillor
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by HoL Site Admin on
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For those who like the Openly Local Site John links to we added a permanent link to this site last year via Public Service Watch on the Public Services tab. It's not just about election data though. Take a look.
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Permalink Reply by Tim Caines on
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As the Conservative candidate for Harringay - if elected, I will put the people of Harringay first. It is fundamental as a public servant. My grandfather was an Independent Councillor in his time and Leader of his Council as an Independent. The people you serve come first, of course.
John, you may be right in your options predictions but let's wait for people to vote first.
PS. Full compliments on your bike shed. You must have a very low carbon footprint! :-)
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Permalink Reply by Adam on
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Don't be deceived by John's bike shed and his Toyota Pious - you need to look at the stamps in his passport to get a fuller picture of his carbon footprint!
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain" ─ a line from the Wizard of Oz which has entered general political discussion. The whole scene is a nice metaphor for aspects of public life. An impressive leader - a "magical wizard" with a scary booming voice is revealed by Toto, a small dog. He turns out to be a nonentity : a charlatan fooling most of the people all of the time.
In recent years, the notion of "independent" MPs has acquired some glitz, with the elections of Martin Bell and Richard Taylor - people with a reputation for integrity and determination to stand up for causes they believe in.
But simply being an "independent" candidate won't guarantee these qualities - let alone wizardry. (Though, a party label doesn't offer a guarantee either.)
John, you highlight the party-hopping during the four years of this Council. I'm disappointed by how little we know about what went on behind the curtain. With Cllr Alan Dobbie - apart from a candid post from Julie - in public at least, there was a pretty smooth switch between two bland official versions: a nonentity put on a blue tie.
With Brian Haley there was a bit more truth - again from Julie. But also because the Tories posted a claim that he'd negotiated with them as well as the LibDems; and they mentioned some of the absurd demands he was supposed to have made. We've yet to find out the terms of the deal Cllr Haley finally struck. Is he, as rumoured, a LibDem Parliamentary candidate? Or - another rumour - an honorary environmental adviser to Nick Clegg? (If so, I hope Clegg weighs such advice very carefully.)
A couple of small corrections. We aren't sent off to River Park House. The Leader's office is there. (Probably symbolic of how a leader-cabinet system is very easily 'captured' and stifled by the bureaucracy.) But most meetings are still at the Civic Centre. Though such public meetings are little more than theatre; with key decisions taken beforehand.
John, you seem to imply that you want to vote for someone with an overriding allegiance to the local ward. So let me correct what Tim Caines wrote: councillors are Haringey councillors. Of course we have ward and party loyalties. But it's a legal duty - and I would say a moral requirement as well - to consider the public interest first and foremost. Which means all the residents of the Borough. Not just our own ward, interest group, or party.
(Councillor & candidate Tottenham Hale ward.)
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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But it's a legal duty - and I would say a moral requirement as well - to consider the public interest first and foremost.
Then why have you not thrown council taxes raised in the west of the borough at the east of the borough which I believe was the entire raison d'etre behind Haringey in the first place? Please have a think about this because as far as I can see ward councillors west of the railway have not acted AT ALL in the best interests of Haringey as a whole, and this includes the time when they used to be Labour councillors. In fact perhaps the only example I can think of is Brian Haley's CPZ work in Stroud Green but then, I don't know everything that goes on.
I'm sorry but this might be how it's supposed to work but I don't think it's how it does work.
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And Remember this post?
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Hi Alan,
Thanks for correcting me...not sure 'correcting' is the right word however but rather restating something I said through somewhat of a misinterpretation if I may politely say.
I think John's point was that a ward councillor should be able to speak for his or her ward - I would like to think that, when a Council develops policy borough-wide then councillors from each ward can contribute to what would be right for their ward they represent as well defend the interests of said-ward.
It does seem a touch pedantic and insensitive if I may say (with all respect, of course) to make it look like I don't understand that legally if I became a councillor and am elected - I would be a Haringey councillor - although, all the same, I would put the people of Harringay first and they would always factor in to my decisions on Bourough-wide issues also.
I would argue it depends largely on the issues under discussion. If the issue was about all of Haringey, then I consider it under that dimension only.
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Tim, I'm really not trying to score points. Nor, I hope, am I being pedantic. I think there are some important issues here. I was responding to John McMullan, and asking whether he wanted councillors with an overriding allegiance to Harringay ward. That's what you seemed to be saying. So if you mean you're promising to give the greatest part of your time and effort to the ward which elects you, that's fair enough. As a 'backbencher' that's what I do now in Tottenham Hale.
But do I always and inevitably put the residents Tottenham Hale first? I do not. For a wide range of reasons.
For one thing, there are many situations when councillors have different 'hats' and are in a special position. For instance: on Planning and Licensing; as a trustee or company director appointed by the Council; or on a Disciplinary or Grievance Panel.
There are times when it's fairly clear that the needs of your own ward are outweighed by somewhere else in Haringey. E.g. residents in Tottenham Hale need and deserve good street lighting. But let's say that some streets in e.g. Crouch End are dingy and dangerous. Should I object to them getting priority? Of course not.
A further point is teamwork. If I spot a problem in another ward - dumping, say, or a broken pavement - I report it. Many of colleagues from nearby wards do the same for us.
Sometimes having a local ward focus is used by officers to block us from exploring wider issues. This is how it works. One of the few effective tools 'backbench' councillors still have is the right to ask questions. Naturally, as in every large organisation, many senior bureaucrats think they always know best. Many prefer to do their jobs without the bother of public involvement or accountability to "lay" people including councillors.
In a few cases, senior officers will try to prevent us finding out what's going on. Classic techniques are delay and obfuscation. (Though a senior officer in another authority once told me he preferred 'flooding' - drowning a councillor in documents.) Two of the excuses I've come across recently for refusing me information were: that I'm not the relevant cabinet member; and that something is not in my ward. So you'll see that it's important to insist on being Haringey councillors.
A last example. (There are many more.) This is what's called the "upstream" problem. As ward councillors there's a tendency for our time to be taken-up by individual ward casework and short-term ward-based problems. It's valuable work, of course. But to have a real, lasting impact we need to trace problems back to causes and look for preventative solutions. That's easier on a borough-wide level. And probably means going wider still.
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