Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Dangerous Potholes. Should the Council ask?
I’m beginning to wonder if I’m making a mountain out of a molehill. Or, in this case, a pit out of dip. Last February cyclists were alarmed about a stretch of Green Lanes with a combination of potholes and lack of streetlights. Just across the Hackney border, complaints months apart hadn’t resolved it. With a group effort – calls and emails from HoL members, including Alison and Adam – and from me to Haringey staff, the problems were tackled. Potholes filled; lights replaced; tree branches cut back.
What worried everyone, of course, was the risk of a serious accident – especially for a cyclist, motor cyclist or pedestrian. Someone coming off a bike, say, and going under a truck. So, this year, after snow and ice left potholes across the UK, my thoughts turned to accidents. Doesn’t Haringey need to find and fill the most dangerous holes first? Phoning Haringey’s Pothole Hotline I was amazed to learn they didn’t actually ask: 'How big is the pothole? Is it dangerous?' If you mention these facts, they will record them. But it was up to the caller.
So I made a modest suggestion. To avoid danger to life and limb, I asked them to add to the “script” given to the council’s Call Centre; and on the webpage for pothole reports. I then had a most peculiar email correspondence with Haringey senior officers. One wrote that he saw: "no harm in us asking some information about the size of a pothole” But didn’t reply when I asked for an explicit assurance that the question would be added. Another wrote: "I think a sense of proportion in relation to this matter would be greatly appreciated."
Nobody wants residents standing in the road with a tape measure. And people do sometimes exaggerate. But I’d have thought that asking residents is part of a sensible assessment and triage process. Which helps council staff to get the most dangerous potholes filled as quickly as possible before someone breaks a limb – or worse.
Tags for Forum Posts: George Bernard Shaw, cyclists, ice and snow, potholes, roads, triage
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
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ALAN, what you say makes sense.
But it is worrying that this common sense approach hasn't already occurred to the permanent staff and worse, when this sensible idea is pointed out to them, you receive a half-hearted response. "No harm in us asking some information" (?!)
This foot-dragging surely reflects on the quality of staff the council is employing, does it not?
It doesn't seem to have occurred to this individual that there may be harm done in not asking for this information. One has the impression that in this case at least, the staff are trying to get away with doing the absolute minimum and service to the public comes a poor second. Does someone need a bollocking, or Haringey's hiring policies need reviewing?
As well as the serious risks you mentioned, some pot-holes are large enough to rip off the front suspension of an Austin Mini, or even a car.
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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The council are definitely liable. Speak to the LCC (I assume you're a member).
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Permalink Reply by Stuart on
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Make sure you get a photo asap (dated of course). The one by the bus stop reported over a month ago was, according to that thread, filled in. Whereabouts was this pot hole you hit?
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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This, Adrian, is what has been worrying me. As you say, it could have been you and not your bike which was run over.
It's the message I've been trying - so far unsuccessfully - to get through to Council officers. I've taken it up with Niall Bolger, Director of Urban Environment, and Dr Ita O'Donovan, the Chief Executive. (Copying in Cllr John Bevan and Cllr Claire Kober.) When I expressed my fear that someone might be killed or injured in exactly these circumstances, Dr O'Donovan's comment to me was: "I think a sense of proportion in relation to this matter would be greatly appreciated".
It's even more unhelpful that, because of Haringey's ban on social media websites, Council Officers are blocked from viewing photos - including a pothole I was particularly worried about in Kemble Road N17 .
So anyone reading this who spots a potentially dangerous pothole, please report it giving location details - the nearest house or numbered streetlight is very helpful. Describe - as accurately as possible but without taking risks - the size and depth. So Haringey staff can get to the worst first.
[Following HoL Guidelines. I'm a Labour councillor and prospective candidate for Tottenham Hale.]
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Alan if you have accurately reported what O'Donovan said if you have not taken it out of context, which I doubt, then I am disgusted at her remark but not surprised. It is perhaps an example why some folk will not be sorry to see the back of this overpaid and over-promoted council official, who managed to evade any criticism over Baby P and who claimed in that respect, that lessons had been learnt: but she seemed to be referring to PR and presentation. She was also reported to describe Sharon Shoesmith as "our heroine".
It seems the problem of the quality of council staff goes from top to bottom and some of them do not seem to be able to relate to the real world. O'Donovan's condescension and dismissal of your legitimate concerns seems to fall into this camp.
Perhaps O'Donovan's six-figure salary (is it more than the prime minister?) helped to insulate her from living in the world that most of us inhabit. Perhaps she needed to try to ride a bike (a) to save the planet and (b) to drive into one of her potholes and feel the bruises.
I was sorry to read of Adrian's accident. As a sometime motorcycle rider, I wonder if the pothole might have been enough to cause a motorcycle to veer or swerve, also causing an accident? I support your entirely rational notion of dealing with the worst first, even if it involves clerks doing extra work.
Until the council gets the basics right - like mending the broken roads - how can anyone expect them to get more complicated things right – such as child protection?
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Given Adrian's pothole accident, can I make two suggestions for everyone reporting potholes.
►First, as far as possible, and without taking risks, give accurate details. This includes: your own assessment of the danger; and the approximate size and depth of the pothole. Also its location - e.g. nearest house number; middle of the road; likely to be under a parked car etc.
► Then, despite my scepticism about the FixMyStreet website, this is where it comes into its own!
Because everyone can see a map of which potholes have been reported, where and when. I plan to use both FixMyStreet and Haringey's own website reporting form.
Adrian, in the next few days I'll try to find time to post my email exchange with Mr Bolger and Dr O'Donovan on my Flickr photoblog
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In view of Adam's post below, I will post pothole reports to Fill That Hole. (Although, plainly other residents may not know about this website and be using Fix My Street.)
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Permalink Reply by Adam on
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Just to add FillthatHole has had almost 30,000 reports in 3 years across the UK but since the 1st January 2010 there have been 5,500 reports - a fivefold increase on 2009, this might partly be due to increased publicity but also the scale of the problem on the roads.
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I am concerned by the information you provide Alan - how are officers supposed to know if the pothole is urgent (24 hours) or less urgent (7days)? I assume that they inspect all the defects as soon as they can, but why not encourage the reporter to give her as much information as possible.
I would like to recommend www.fillthathole.org.uk (I must declare an interest as I work for CTC) which does ask for information such as size, depth and distance form kerb. It also uses Google Maps which I think is better than the mapping system on FixMy Street.
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Thanks Adam. The short answer is that when systems are running normally someone will inspect a pothole within 24 hours of its being reported. As we know, the problem is that systems have not been running normally.
Following heavy snow and ice across the U.K. there are very large numbers of potholes. The Local Government Association said: "The worst conditions in 30 years have left roads exposed to a condition known as ‘freeze-thaw’, which damages the roads in wet and particularly freezing conditions".
Below is the latest email I received on this yesterday from Niall Bolger, Director of Haringey Urban Environment Department. Followed by my reply.
----- Original Message -----
From : Niall Bolger
To : Cllr Alan Stanton
Cc : Ita O'Donovan; Cllr Lorna Reith; Cllr Ray Dodds
Sent : Thursday, February 18, 2010 4:19 PM
Subject : Potholes and Triage
Dear Councillor Stanton,
Thank you for your e-mail and your suggestion that residents and members are asked to specify the size of potholes when reporting them to help with prioritisation, I do not think this would improve performance in terms of time, quality or customer satisfaction.
Our inspectors and contractors operate within clear guidelines and standards and aim to inspect all reported defects within 24 hours. When doing the inspection their experience means that are often picking up other issues that need addressing, for example there may be a larger repair required structural issues that need a longer term approach or other potholes that need repair. Our inspectors are also identifying potholes and raising orders whilst conducting their routine inspections and site visits. In recognition of the demands on the service I believe that they are best placed to prioritise the services and where the contractor’s gangs should be directed.
As you are aware, following Councillor Bevan’s e-mail, due to the sheer volume of potholes that are being reported at the present time, there are some delays in repairing them. From the 1st January we have dealt with over 500 jobs compared to less than 200 for the whole of November and December. We are currently inspecting all reports within 2 working days and most repairs are taking place within 14 days. 92% of the emergency orders have been completed within 24 hours. We anticipate being back on target by the end of March.
If you require anything further please let me know.
Regards
Niall Bolger
----- Original Message -----
From : Alan Stanton
To : Niall Bolger
Cc : Ita O'Donovan, Chief Executive; Cllr Claire Kober; Cllr Lorna Reith; Cllr Ray Dodds
Sent : Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:43 PM
Subject : Potholes and Triage
Dear Mr Bolger,
Thanks for your email [above]; and for copying me your email to Cllr Reith a few minutes later.
This evening I have read both emails carefully and thought about the points you make. You may be surprised to learn that I fully accept your argument that our inspectors are far more experienced in making an assessment when they go out. And that they can and do pick-up issues other than potholes which will be apparent when they are on site.
I am not suggesting, and never have suggested, that our inspectors should not go and take a look. Nor that we replace a professional assessment by a resident's assessment. Least of all, am I proposing that residents should be able "to prioritise the service" and decide "where the contractors' gangs should be directed". If you have this misapprehension, there's nothing I've written which would support it.
Perhaps you're concerned that I'm thinking about the City of Boston's scheme called Citizen's Connect? This appears to give residents the facility to use an iphone so their: "complaint goes hurtling through the bureaucracy of City Hall and heads straight out to public works crews around the city". I've no idea whether that description is accurate. But if Boston is actually doing that without any prioritisation - which I doubt - they may open themselves to litigation. Not least by no-win-no-fee lawyers representing residents who can't afford an iPhone!
If such a crude scheme was proposed in Haringey, I would oppose it for the reason I've already stated in this email thread. Our aim should be a real partnership with residents. This is emphatically not a denial of staff's professional skills, experience and knowledge.
I'd already expressed my scepticism to the Hornsey Journal. (Reported in today's edition.)
I am though, disappointed that, while I accept the arguments you make, you give no indication at all that you have either understood or considered my points - which are not mutually exclusive to your own.
So for the record, having said what I am not proposing, let me give a different example to illustrate what I mean. It's like someone ringing the Police or NHS direct. At the point of contact with a member of the public someone talks briefly to the caller and makes an initial assessment of how urgent and serious something is. This initial triage is rough-and-ready. It cannot and does not replace professional assessment. But it's part of the information gathering; and can and does help to get urgent cases seen urgently.
The fact is - as you say - you still have a two-working-day delay in inspectors viewing potholes. You hope to get back to a 24 hour response. But at times during the past few weeks the delay has been considerably longer. If very cold weather produces more potholes, there is every likelihood the same problem will recur.
Anyway, for now we will have to agree to disagree.
Hopefully, in the near future Haringey officers will abandon their defensive, inward-looking culture and have a new willingness to embrace learning, experiment, and co-production with our residents.
I will be publishing this email thread so Haringey residents can make their own judgements.
Alan Stanton
Tottenham Hale ward councillor
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