Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Proposed Wightman Road bus route - the Mayor speaks
Campaigners for a new bus route along Wightman Road will be disappointed at Boris Johnson's cavalier response to a question put forward by Labour GLA member Joanne McCartney.
The Mayor's answer is as follows:
"The vast majority of the area served by this suggested new route is within walking distance of high frequency services providing very similar journey opportunities. These routes include:
• The 29 which serves the other side of the “Harringay Ladder” which links Wood Green, Finsbury Park and Holloway;
• The W3 which links Stroud Green and New River Village to Wood Green and Finsbury Park, where other high frequency services facilitate interchange for those wishing to travel to Holloway; and
• The 91 which links Hornsey Road to Holloway and Crouch End where other high frequency services facilitate interchange for those wishing to travel to Wood Green.
The suggested route would therefore not increase passenger numbers sufficiently to justify the cost."
The Mayor has ignored the fact that the main interest in a proposed bus route along Wightman Road comes from residents of that road who find it difficult to climb the often steep roads which connect Green Lanes and Wightman Road and who are therefore impeded in their access to the bus network. The existence of bus routes along Priory Road and along Green Lanes does not address their concerns.
There may well be reasons for not introducing a bus route along Wightman Road. It is, after all, both narrow and residential, and I have yet to make up my own mind.
What I can say, though, is that the Mayor’s reason is not a good reason and that he has failed to look into the question properly.
Perhaps HoL subscribers should club together to buy the Mayor a topographical map.
David Schmitz
Liberal Democrat Chairman for Tottenham
The Mayor's answer is as follows:
"The vast majority of the area served by this suggested new route is within walking distance of high frequency services providing very similar journey opportunities. These routes include:
• The 29 which serves the other side of the “Harringay Ladder” which links Wood Green, Finsbury Park and Holloway;
• The W3 which links Stroud Green and New River Village to Wood Green and Finsbury Park, where other high frequency services facilitate interchange for those wishing to travel to Holloway; and
• The 91 which links Hornsey Road to Holloway and Crouch End where other high frequency services facilitate interchange for those wishing to travel to Wood Green.
The suggested route would therefore not increase passenger numbers sufficiently to justify the cost."
The Mayor has ignored the fact that the main interest in a proposed bus route along Wightman Road comes from residents of that road who find it difficult to climb the often steep roads which connect Green Lanes and Wightman Road and who are therefore impeded in their access to the bus network. The existence of bus routes along Priory Road and along Green Lanes does not address their concerns.
There may well be reasons for not introducing a bus route along Wightman Road. It is, after all, both narrow and residential, and I have yet to make up my own mind.
What I can say, though, is that the Mayor’s reason is not a good reason and that he has failed to look into the question properly.
Perhaps HoL subscribers should club together to buy the Mayor a topographical map.
David Schmitz
Liberal Democrat Chairman for Tottenham
Tags for Forum Posts: TfL, W1 Bus, Wightman Road, public transport
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John D on
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I think the main reason, which has been suggested here already, is " The suggested route would therefore not increase passenger numbers sufficiently to justify the cost."
I'm sure there are residents - me included - who find it difficult to climb the steeper roads but would those few constitute a viable passenger base to justify the service ?
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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on
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I have been waiting for John and OAE to make some comment on the Mayor's statement. But perhaps they haven't seen the discussion yet?
I have to say, I didn't expect anything else from someone of the Mayor's political persuasion. Of course he's trying to cut spending - although if he hadn't cancelled the West London Extension of the congestion charge, he'd would have had more money in his 'for public transport' bank account..
@David I understand your reservations about the width of the road, but believe me, there are quite a few narrower streets in London that do carry a bus service..
The representatives of TfL did give, I think, a pointer on how to proceed. By extending an existing service, which would I think cut the cost of the overall service, because the usage of the whole route would be calculated. The 153 & 236 both currently terminate at Finsbury Park and it might be possible to extend one of those. Or perhaps extending one of the routes that currently terminate at Turnpike Lane, might also be possible.
I'm sure there might also be some mileage in calculating how far people have to walk to their nearest bus stop. I expect this will be unusually high for those living on Wightman, compared to other parts of the area. I hope Boris will perhaps change his mind and realise that many elderly people can't walk that far to a bus stop, let alone trying to carry shopping up the side of Mount Harringay..
Let's see what others have to say..
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Your journey looks like a pleasant stroll. And what's half an hour ?
You really can't expect a door-to-door public transport service.
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Permalink Reply by Liz on
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I'm hoping that John is being deeply ironic here.
I think the give away words are 'pleasant stroll'; over the uneven pavements; squeezing between bins on the pavement and parked cars; paddling past Jewsons; negotiating the kamikaze driving of those passing through; standing on traffic isles praying that someone on a mobile phone won't mow you down while yelling at her boyfriend; taking your life into your hands using the crossings as white van man screeches to a halt millimetres from the buggy; before closing your eyes and running across the mini-roundabout at the top of Alroy in order to get onto the leafy calm of Upper Tollington Park and I've only walked from Warham Road.
You certainly feel you have deserved your chicken, chips and beer at Nando's. Half an hour of misery only slightly alleviated by the sight of the church or the excitement of a train passing. Yep, my guess is Boris would certainly enjoy that particular walkabout...bring the bugaboo Boris to make it all the more fun!
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Hopes dashed Liz - no irony here, no hyperbole either.
Out of interest, I walked from Hampden to Endymion and it WAS a pleasant stroll. It took about 20 minutes from Warham to Endymion and back.
The pavments are patched but not noticeably uneven - a proper pram or buggy with decent-sized wheels and springs would cope with no problem. A cheap Chinese one with neither might rattle a bit.
There is a trickle of water on the pavement just past Jewsons, as we know, but no need for wellies - the pavement is slightly damp.
I didn't manage to borrow a pram for the experiment but I could have negotiated the parked cars with no problem. But if you find this is an issue, why not print off some polite notices pointing out that they are being inconsiderate and stick them under the widscreen? I'm sure it's only thoughtlessnesss.
I really don't understand why people find it so difficult / dangerous to cross Wightman - I do it 10 times a day and I'm not particularly sprightly. It needs a bit of common sense and patience yes, but the pedestrian refuges do work. And anyone who tries to cross at a pedestrian crossing without waiting for the oncoming car to stop just doesn't know how to use them.
The best way to get to Endymion is to use the pavement on the East side, which is the wider, all the way to Alroy and cross there. However, I did also cross at the roundabout several times and never felt in danger because I was patient, observant and used common sense.
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I suggest you do it every weekday for a year in all weathers with a buggy at around 6 o'clock in the evening as I did when I worked. You may find it less pleasant than a sunny (ish) afternoon in July. With a small child you never use anything but common sense...sadly I can't say the same for the drivers.
This afternoon, I observed a driver screech to a halt mm from me on the crossing near the station as he yacked into his mobile phone. I got a sheepish grin for my abject terror. Sadly I don't have the money for a bugaboo so cheap Chinese made is what we have to put up with as I suspect many parents have to who may not have a great deal of disposable income
Oh and add a small child into the mix, keeping her ahead or behind you ensuring you keep her in view at all times (no room to walk holding the buggy) as you walk single file and your stroll turns into anything but pleasant...
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I have every sympathy for mothers ( and/ or fathers ) with small children Liz, but we were initially talking about Adrian's excursions to Nando.
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What I wouldn't have given for a little bus to take me from Stroud Green road where the girl's nursery was to the bottom of my road (I'd already struggled back on the 29 from Camden) on those wet dark nights a walk of 40 mins...sometimes I'd walk the 'long way round' down to Green Lanes just to avoid it.
In answer to your point "You really can't expect a door-to-door public transport service"
Actually, I do expect a good public transport service that takes me as close as possible to where I want to go. My family has paid a lot of tax over the years (and still do) and we have no car so I don't think asking for extra bus routes is an unreasonable demand.
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The only sensible way to deal with this is to get TFL to do a passsenger survey. If we ask people on Wightman if they want a convenient bus service stopping on their doorstep, of course they are going to say "yes"
What we need is a survey showing how many people, and at what times, travel now using existing public transport, from somewhere along the proposed route to somewhere else on the proposed route.
Then work out the cost. Is it economically viable?
I too have paid a lot of tax over the years ( and still do ) and I'm not sure I want to pay more to subsidise an uneconomic service. -
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
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A BUS service along Wightman Road would primarily be of use to residents on the western side of the Ladder.
But there might also be a benefit for passengers using Harringay Railway station and could save them a trip of 300m up and down Burgoyne Road in order to use the current nearest bus service that runs north-south.
It would also be useful to residents living on the western side of the Harringay station pedestrian bridge (such as me), for the same reason.
I can't comment on the cost/benefit aspects.
Partial topographcial map attached.
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Permalink Reply by chico on
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Had a meeting at the Oddfellows in Hewitt Road yesterday and I would have so appreciated the Wightman Road bus - istead the trudge up and down hill was a real pain. Go on Boris give us half a bendy bus please.
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Yes, the Mayor has spoken. Out of which orifice is open to question. In fairness to Boris, though, we must assume his response to be based on "local" or TfL "advice".
Thanks, David, for this update. Stephen, our silence is due to John McM being on holiday and my spending this morning petitioning around Denmark Road enclave and Hornsey Station. The 200+ Wightman Road residents who have already signed up their enthusiasm for a Wightman bus route would doubtless see Boris's references to the W3, the 91 and even the 29 as a bit of mayoral pisstaking.
It does however leave me wondering whether any amount of petitioning from the residents of this or adjacent roads will weigh at all in the balance against TfL's pre-judgement. Unfortunate, perhaps, that the question was put at this elevated level before our door-to-door petitioning was complete by late August-early September, and before our online petition achieved the prominence I think it deserved. Boris's response, together with an earlier negative hint in the local press from an anonymouse (sic) TfL 'spokesperson', certainly depletes the stamina - on top of the inevitable depletion of this old chap's cartilage and shoe leather.
Meanwhile, the petitioning will continue. The residents of Wightman Road and areas adjacent know what they want. There is no suggestion of arm-twisting or begging for signatures or signing up to anything just to get the petitioner off one's front steps. Anyone who has been up and down Wightman Road, and up and down the Ladder, for more than thirty years does not need to be told that there will always be both pros and cons for and against any proposal to make this area more usable and more liveable for all our residents and road users. BUT, too many of us on Wightman Road have paid too much tax over the years, and are still paying too much Council Tax, to be taken in by any cost-benefit excuse. What we're asking for is a bus service.
In a week or two I may ask for some help from any volunteers who would be willing to help out with the door-to-door on the "Ladder Roads". Petition sheets will be supplied by me through your letter box. Just message me here and give me your road and house number. We hope to finish petitioning by end of August.
I wonder if we were to invite Boris, with all local Councillors of whichever party, to accompany me for some doorstep conversations with all our signed-up residents, would the Mayor change his tune? If he has a Saturday & Sunday to spare from his swine-flu endeavours, I'd be up for it.
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