Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Anyone contesting their Major Works bill from the council?
Hi,
I've been hit by a crazy bill from Homes for Haringey who undertook 'Major Works' on some of the local homes. Mine is a two-flat Victorian house in Noel Park and I'm the leaseholder of one of them, the other being let to a council tenant.
The initial estimate for my half was 17k for a new roof, windows and doors, painting the window sills and pipes. They did a lot less work to the house and to my flat than expected but my bill now is a whopping 25k, which they can't yet give me a breakdown for.
The other flat had a lot more done to it (all windows, bathroom and kitchen), which required the scaffolding to stay for a very long time, plus our scaffolding was also servicing the house next door which had quite a complex roof to work on. My part for the scaffold was initially estimated at 5k, which is extortionate considering all they did to the roof was change the membrane, battens and some tiles. I had tried to challenge this at the time of receiving the estimate, to no avail.
While I'm waiting to, one day, receive the breakdown of this bill (probably when they start chasing me for payment) I am wondering if anyone else is going through the same or has some experience in challenging the council?
I'm in absolute shock, can't actually believe it, feeling robbed to be honest, dispossessed if they go ahead as there is no way I can foot the bill without selling my flat.
Tags for Forum Posts: major works
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by BusyB on
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Right now I can't do much because even though the bill is precise to the penny, they're unable to give me a breakdown, they can't even tell me when the breakdown will be available. I anticipate though that when the request for payment comes I'll have very little time to argue anything. So I'm trying to prepare.
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Permalink Reply by Justin Guest on
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Surely they (the freeholder) are obliged to give you an estimate and scope of works before they do the work. As a leaseholder I think you have the right to take the scope of works and find if anyone can do the works cheaper- so the freeholder does not fleece you?
You might want some legal advice (Citizen's Advice?).
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As a leaseholder you have the right to be informed on decisions made by the freeholder (council) but no more. You can comment on these decisions (I did), but the council has no obligation to take your comments into account (they didn't, just told me the decision had already been taken). There are layers of decision-making processes and, by the time a scaffold is erected outside your house and left there for months, it's too late to backtrack or argue that the price is twice what it should be. Then the delay between the works undertaken and the confusing bills that ensue make it even harder to argue anything.
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There is an association. They're usually busy with bigger cases involving the future of the borough. I've come across one or two other leaseholders who are in a similar situation, although not at the same stage. Surely there are more out there?
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... and what I've heard is that it's very common for the council to reject these challenges. To be honest it's quite scary to think that they'll do all they can to get away with it.
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Permalink Reply by Straw Cat on
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According to this newsletter there is or was a capping limit of £15,000. Perhaps you should contact this leaseholders' campaign group or there is another called Haringey Leasholders Association (HLA).
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Thanks. Just read and I don't fit the eligibilty criteria. Also says "the cap is not currently applicable to Haringey leaseholders". Been in touch with the HLA but not much reaction so far.
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Permalink Reply by Rob B on
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Hi
A few pointers
1) When you get any demands from the council make sure you identify any part of it that might be for ground rent rather than service charge. As the council is your freeholder I imagine this sum is very low - perhaps £10 per annum. MAKE SURE you pay this sum whatever happens. I recommend an electronic bank payment with the reference "RENT [date]-[date]" in there. I won't go into full details, but you are under almost no immediate threat for non-payment of service charge, but that is not the case for ground rent.
2) It sounds like the council have gone through the section 20 consultation procedure, but do check they have complied with the statutory time limits. Also check exactly what the scope of works in the section 20 consultation was. How do they compare to the actual work that was done? The consultation does not have to detail absolutely everything, e.g. if it says "replace first floor window" and then on replacing that window they uncovered faulty brickwork that couldn't have been seen before the window was removed, it's reasonable to repair that brickwork. Was any additional work done not mentioned in the section 20 notice reasonably foreseeable? If so, it might not be properly recoverable from you.
3) Keep pushing for that breakdown. You need it. Refuse to pay your service charge until it is provided. If the council issues a debt claim against you for the arrears don't worry (more on that later). I don't actually think they would even threaten for ages as councils are so disorganised and risk adverse.
4) Read your lease. Really read it carefully. What is actually recoverable from you under the service charge? Unless you read leases frequently this could take you some time. Don't think you can just read one small section, you will have to read the whole thing. In particular become familiar with the definitions in the lease that describe your flat, the common areas, the structural parts of the building, the service media etc. Your comment about the other flat getting a new kitchen interested me. I wouldn't expect that to be a recoverable sum under the service charge normally. Then read the service charge provisions very carefully. What exactly can the freehold re-charge to you under your lease? Is ever item of works they have sought to recover from you covered by your lease? Do any fall between two stools and arguably fall outside the service charge? If so - that's not recoverable from you. Alternatively were any items, even if covered by the service charge, carried out unnecessarily? Was full replacement carried out when patch repair would have been more than sufficient?
5) Para 4 above is step 1 for how a tribunal will determine whether you should pay service charge. Step 1 is is the item properly recoverable under the service charge provisions in the lease. Step 2 is, if yes, is that sum reasonable in amount? At this point you will have to go through the items line by line and start getting your own quotes to compare them
6) Then you have a decision to make. If you think that you have been charged too much and some of the items are not recoverable, and/or some of the recoverable ones are not reasonable in amount your first port of call will be to try to negotiate. If Haringey is anything like Islington, who I have done many of these against, expect no replies for many many months at a time, and those replies simply being "we've forwarded this to someone else to look at". If that doesn't go anywhere you have the right to refer the matter to the First-tier Tribunal (Property Chamber) for a determination on whether the sums are recoverable from you, and if they are recoverable are the sums reasonable. An intelligent, determined, and thorough person can do this for themselves, however with legal representation it is of course much easier.
7) If the council were ever to issue county court proceedings against you for the arrears just file a defence that says you challenge the recoverablilty and reasonableness of the sums claim and request the matter is transferred to the Tribunal. The Courts will almost always agree. I've never had them say no.
8) Never admit anything you may later wish to resile from. Service charge legislation says that as soon as a service charge item is agreed or admitted by the leaseholder that's it - the tribunal has very limited power to unpick that agreement. If you are feeling very under pressure and you feel like you need to make a payment, make sure you send an email or a letter first saying such payment is made "on account, and with no admission as to liability or recoverability of the service charge items"
9) If you can't be bothered to fight, or on reviewing all the documents think actually there is a good chance that all or the majority of the service charge amounts will be recoverable from you, but you just need more time to pay, just tell the council that. Say you will make payments over a, say, 5 year period as you can't afford to pay any more, and if they don't accept that you will go to the media and explain how Haringey have forced you to sell your home to pay the service charge bills and made you homeless.
Good luck :)
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https://www.lease-advice.org/files/2016/09/service-charge-dispute-r...
That flowchart above is pretty helpful. They don't recommend withholding service charge which is, I suppose the safer advice.
I prefer a more high pressure / high risk approach myself, and withholding service charge normally brings things to a head quicker, but you do have to be aware of the possibility of paying the council's costs at a later date.
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Wow, thanks for this mine of info!!
Yes the ground rent is about £10 per year. I think I am up to date with all service charges (up to Major Works, for which I have received the bill but no request for payment yet). There were delays with my payments because they're so confusing with what they charge me for! between paying ahead (estimated charges) and getting the actual bill a year later, exchange of emails dragging on for months, varying staff and departments... I ended up giving up on my last query and paid to bring myself up to date, exasperated by the amount of time they had me waste over it. I think I also queried this year's charges in April, but was told no breakdown would be available till August (how can they bill without?!). So far this was about minor repairs and charges, not worth a battle, better keep their admin costs down because we pay for these too.
Now Major Works are another dimension. Well worth a battle. I will keep your message somewhere safe and follow your advice, point by point, as well as share with the one or two other leaseholders I have come across so far (through HLA). And I'm happy to pass on any knowledge to anyone else who needs it in the future.
Thanks again.
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