Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Why are the police and the council failing to do something about the anti-social behaviour on Duckett's Common?
I'd really like to know why the blatant drinking and drug dealing on Duckett's Common appears to be unchallenged by enforcement authorities.
As someone who passes by Duckett's Common often, and witnesses the congregation of groups of young men, who are clearly dealing (and if they aren't dealing then they are smoking weed) I can't believe this remains unchallenged.
As it gets darker and large groups gather, it also becomes intimidating. I have female friends who get cat-called and followed. A young friend was offered drugs as he cut through on the way to Green Lanes.
I know the Common has a brilliant and active Friends Group and I have been to some of their meetings but I fail to see why they can't place more pressure on the police to do something.
The councillors - such as David Schmitz - who are generally very good seem to lack the will or the teeth to tackle this problem.
Surely, it is possible to enforce a zero tolerance policy towards this behaviour before it spirals out of control?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Pete on
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Hi, yes, please do keep me updated, and I'll do the same !
All the best
Pete
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Permalink Reply by Karen Alexander on
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I have been liaising with the local police. They are working with the transport police who are leading on this and are using the following strategies to address the various issues at Ducketts Common.
A dispersal zone is in place. Police can ask groups of two or more people to disperse if they are deemed to be displaying anti-social behaviour. If they return within 24 hours they can be arrested. The dispersal area stretches beyond Ducketts Common to include parts of the ladder roads, Turnpike Lane and Wood Green High Street.
Acceptable Behaviour Contracts are being issued to people. These are drawn up by the police and include a list of acceptable behaviours expected. They should be signed by the person they are issued to but it doesn't matter if they refuse - they are still binding.
If ABCs are breached they proceed to Anti Social Behaviour Orders and some arrests have been made as a result of ASBOs being breached.
The addition of the transport police means a bit more manpower but I am continuing to liaise with the police and council to find a longer term solution.
One thing that will help is darker, colder evenings as we head into autumn and winter.
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Permalink Reply by Seema Chandwani on
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I think from reading the original post, being in Ducketts Common on Friday night and having worked that particular park on and off since 1996 in my Youth Work guise - we need to find a wider solution.
I watched the park for about 20mins on Friday and there are two distinct issues:
- The Adult Drinkers (potentially drug addiction too)/Urinating/Sleeping etc. (one side of park close to stn)
- The Young People (other side close to the basketball courts).
Both groups are sharing the space without interaction.
Oddly, the young people didn't seem that different in group makeup (not saying they are definately the same) who used to hang around Turnpike Lane Bus Station last year. I can only assume that they've been ASBO'd out of the bus station... and found a new home?
So I am not sure how long term the solutions of ABCs and ASBOs are. Are we just moving the problem along?
On a wider/personal note. It is very disheartening to see groups of young people who have nothing better to do with their lives that to hang around in a park (possibly engaged in drugs).
I viewed it as a fairly loud visual screaming for "help, I need get a life as I have nothing going for me".
I hope that politicians can see that when they consider the actions/solutions they seek. Failing to, will just be repairing a burst water pipe with Sellotape and ultimately all of us as residents (including the young people who are also residents) are failed if their needs are not addressed before they get older and become the next generation of adults on the other side of the park.
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Permalink Reply by matt on
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Seema, agree with you re the wider issues but, as you say, that's longer term. What we need is more immediate action. Acceptable Behaviour Contracts & Anti Social Behaviour Orders are a bureaucratic nightmare for everyone involved and the time involved in utilizing such 'contracts/orders' probably makes them expensive.
The Ducketts Common Friends Group & the council have worked hard to make sure facilities for youth are available in the Common, with the basketball courts & gym refurbished or newly installed. A few dealers shouldn't ruin it for the other youth, let alone other people (adults & kids passing through or using the park).
There are laws against drug dealing and there are surveillance measures that could be more effective; cctv is one such measure. The council in conjunction with the police can implement this, even if only temporarily. Karen, has this been discussed?
Involving the Transport Police encourages responsibility for law enforcement to fall between the cracks between them and the local police. Sufficient local police resources can be utilized if the commander sees fit.
Not only is there drug dealing, there's the sussing of out of commuters as they exit from Turnpike Lane, following them & mugging them for their phones etc. This happened twice last year that I know of (at this time of the year) to two female commuters as they entered Harringay Passage, just up from the Common. So Karen it's actually worse as the nights close in.
As to the youth clubs having been closed by the Tories & Libdems because of the spending cuts & Labour at the local level deciding that's where the axe should fall, it shows just how short sighted all three political parties have been. If Google thinks they're so hip and youthful as an organisation they can fund the re-opening of youth clubs in Haringey. Google HQ is moving in just down the road in Kings X after all. :)
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Permalink Reply by illyriafilms on
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You make some very good points Matt. As much as I'm uneasy about the dramatic rise in intrusive surveillance, I think CCTV may be a good solution. Worth discussing at the next FODC Meeting or the LCSP.
And Karen - it's fine to point to strategies that are being employed but considering the situation seems to have worsened this Summer surely you have to admit that those strategies appear to be failing and it's time for a rethink about how to tackle the problem? Anybody who has passed by or through Ducketts Common this summer must surely find the idea that it is a dispersal zone a bit of a joke.
I also concur with Matt that the closing in of the nights tends to exacerbate the intimidating atmosphere as you exit the tube and head down Willoughby Road and though the numbers decrease, there are still a considerable number of people who hang around smoking in the darkness on the picnic tables of the playground.
My fear is that nobody (not police nor the council) will find a solution until they are either embarrassed into it by public pressure, or worse, something serious happens as a result of the authorities effectively turning a blind eye to the problems on the Common.
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Hi Matt,
Agree with most of your desired outcome, the points not so much :)
Im anti ASBO/ABCs because they just move the problem on, not due to time or expense (its a bit like joining a gym only to enjoy the MacDonalds next door after your session).
Similarly, it is not only Ducketts Common facing this issue, various places across Haringey are now seeing similar 1980s/1990s levels of youth congregating on the streets with nothing to do, parks becoming no go areas and a rise in an underground ecomony (drugs etc) not that I had seen that personally
With a £144m council budget cut and a £500m to the Met Policing budget, nearly 1m young people unemployed, cuts to EMA, cuts to college places and higher cost of living, it doesn't take Columbo to see the link - But out of respect to Karen, I won't dwell on that point.
Dispersal Orders
- Who is policing them?
- This can't be imposed on young people in a park/play area. A dispersal order gives police the powers to disperse groups of 2 or more... How do young people play basketball alone? This is just not workable and lacks common sense.
As someone who has led the campaign in Haringey to re-open the youth centres, I agree with the point about Short Sightedness. It is exactly circumstances like this youth workers can avoid/control. Having 3 youth workers in the park every evening would keep young people (and adults) safe and provide help to those who are displaying behaviour caused by wider issues (drugs, homelessness, unemployment, education etc).
A lot cheaper than constantly putting police officers there to move people elsewhere.
Anyway, after last months cabinet meeting, I have confidence in the councils new youth strategy which will see a lot of provision back in place and allow the council to deploy its staff rapidly to situations such as this many month before it grew to this scale. However, there are limits to what they can do with the right opportunities for young people not being available, but their presence will definately make a huge impact for the concerns expressed in this thread.
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Hi Seema, thank you for the link to the youth strategy - I hope these strategies are implemented.
I do like this paragraph as it seems to get things in a nutshell;
4.3 'Positive for Youth [2012 govt report] demonstrated the value of access to adults with the commitment and skills to give independent support and advice to help show how society works and navigate the transition to adulthood. It showed that young people need the opportunity to come together and learn outside of the classroom, find the things they’re good at and be part of something positive in order to develop personal qualities and social competence. They are also a critical means of building strong communities and national well-being more broadly.'
Broadly speaking the report talks of funding cuts causing services to focus almost solely on targeted provision for the most vulnerable, with 'open access' services bearing the brunt of the cuts.
Paragraph 4.7 includes the finding; 'open access services increasingly provided by external providers, including voluntary, community, faith and private sectors.' (generally across the country)
A few questions if I may;
- Who provides open access services in Haringey currently?
- How many youth clubs (centres) are still running, if any? (as the report seems to imply these still exist even if only partially - 4.12 'The Youth Community and Participation service currently provides a range of open access, centre based and outreach youth work services for young people across Haringey').
- How many were closed during the cuts in funding?
Thanks
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Permalink Reply by CatC on
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Thanks for the informative reply Karen. I guess this might be a question for the police, but I can't help wondering, if they are dealing drugs, why can't they just be arrested for drug-dealing?
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Permalink Reply by Alison P on
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The next LCSP meeting is next Thursday (10th Oct) and various members of the Safer neighbourhhod team will be there. It starts at 7pm at the Harringay United church hall, corner of Allison Road and Green Lanes.
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Permalink Reply by Liz on
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To contact the LCSP [Ladder Community Safety Partnership] via email use lcsp@blueyonder.co.uk
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I have the same worries as expressed here. Is there anything we can do as a community? I am wondering whether CCTV on Ducketts Common could be a help. It is really worrying as the park is othewise mega popular for sports and playground. I would worry about my teenager hanging out in the park with friends and many do meet there after school.
BTW what happened with Ducketts Brew which opened and then disappeared again?
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Permalink Reply by Mat Day on
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I almost want to turn this into a debate about Legalization.
But I won't
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