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Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!

I was at the Area Assembly again last night. Most of it was given over to an update on the Harringay Traffic Issue following the "Special Area Assembly" on traffic in March.

On a positive note, the meeting was much better run than is usually the case. So, well done on that Haringey. Let's keep those improvements going.

The traffic part of the meeting kicked off with Tony Kennedy (the council officer responsible) taking us through a document which aimed to summarise issues raised at the March meeting and to offer an summary of what Haringey's response will be.

A copy of the document is attached. I will let you make up your own minds as to whether you feel it gives you a sense that the Harringay Traffic Issue is really going to be addressed.

Many of Haringey's "planned actions" refer to a traffic study that Alison P noticed in the most recent Haringey People. Alison left the following comment on another post:

I read in my beloved Haringey People yesterday that there is going to be a traffic survey of the whole Green Lanes area - is this right? Isn't this what we've been asking for ages - surely very good news, though not clear how it should/would fit in with the proposed changes being discussed here for Wightman Road ... ?

Does anyone know any more about this?


We do now Alison; we do now.

Firstly, perception correction. The People article gave the impression that it was announcing the holistic traffic survey that the residents have been requesting for many years. It's what I thought; clearly what Alison thought.

We, and no doubt countless others, were quite wrong. We checked on this last night. What the article refers to is a study being run by TfL to assess traffic on Green Lanes with a view to easing bus movements. Haringey hope to get information on some other Harringay traffic issues out of the survey too. They've put in a request for specific additional issues to be included in the remit. (See the attachment for details). They have not yet had a response from TfL.

So, it's not the Harringay-wide traffic study that the Haringey People article inferred it is. It is a TfL study focussed on making the buses run faster. It's not at all clear to me that our objectives are going to be aligned with TfL's in any way. Indeed as Paul Jenkins from the Wightman Road Residents' Association pointed out to me, its interests might be directly opposed to ours - how do you make the buses run faster on Green Lanes? One way could be displacing traffic to Wightman.

I'd be interested to know what others think. Does this look likely to give us what we need? If not, what should we do? I wonder if the opposition parties have any views / solutions to offer.

Tags for Forum Posts: Ladder traffic solutions, Wightman Road, tfl, traffic

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To be honest Hugh - and I'm NOT pushing cars over buses here - if anything the buses hold up other traffic on Green Lanes when they pick up and set down at stops particularly at rush hours.

Of course they have to, and I'm not saying that other traffic should have priority, but I'm not convinced that displacing ALL other traffic to Wightman would let the buses run any faster. Buses are held up by other buses
What you haven't mentioned is - the five cars that pass a bus during it's stop are perhaps carrying 6 -8 people.. The bus is carrying maybe 50 -60 .. so who should have priority?
Stephen, I do wish you would read the post you are replying to. "I'm not saying that other traffic should have priority"

My point is - if TFL come up with the idea that displacing traffic onto Wightman Road will speed up buses on Green Lanes they may be disappointed. Now the opinions expressed yesterday evening indicated that we do not want more traffic on Wightman. So if TFL suggest that more traffic on Wightman would speed up buses on Green Lanes there is an argument against it.
Sure, but let's not get into trying to solve the traffic problem here. I don't think it'll get us anywhere. The issue is, do we think Haringey's proposed solution work. If not, what do we do about it?
They aren't doing a Traffic Survey Harringay wide so .... maybe a letter to Lammy?
David Lammy's office was represented in e audience last night. So, I hope they'll be picking up on it.
It's a simple sleight of hand, to pass off something we did not want (an analysis of bus journey times) as something we asked for. We asked for a full independent traffic survey for Harringay, this is not it.
There are no time scales anywhere on this document, no one specified with whom we can liaise to ask questions and track progress and no sucess criteria by which the service may be judged. The language is vague and stresses how long everything will take ; "further studies", "considerable time", "continue to liaise". Yet it is being written up in the Haringey People as traffic survey confirmed. Yes, a traffic survey is to be carried out...just not the one we wanted...and just why did Brian Haley spend about half an hour in a meeting he came late to before going to Muesli Hill to talk about their traffic issues? To avoid awkward questions? or being asked to make firm committments with time scales? Personally, I thought his exit was an extreme discourtesy to the meeting and probably an indication of how little he cares about the traffic issues around here.
Liz, regarding the inability of the Cabinet Member for CPZs, parking and traffic, to be in two places at once:

Last night was the second night this month where Neighbourhood Management Service has managed to schedule two AA meetings on the same night. There are a number of disadvantages to this doubling up and I think you've just identified another. Cllr Haley popped in to the MH AA meeting in connection with traffic issues local to MH, although I don't remember him saying anything. It appears that the net result is that both areas get cursory attention.

If all the AA meetings were staggered the attention of cabinet members would not need to be divided in the way you've identified.

I think it's now called joined up thinking and (AKA) knowing what the other hand is doing. I wonder if the NMS was trying to get all the AA meetings out of the way before the end of July (before municipal holidays, perhaps?).

At the MH meeting there were NMS slogans on display: "we're working for you" and "engaging with local communities".

(I went to the Muswell Hill AA to hear the scheduled five minutes on Ally Pally. In the event, the billed AP spokesman failed to show and a prepared statement was read out.)


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I don't want to hijack this thread to talk about Area Assembly management (much as I am dying to) but I agree with you totally Clive. I will probably pick this up for another thread so please join me there to talk about this :)
Yes, okay, agree & will contribute to a thread on that subject.

Disclaimer: For the avoidance of doubt, I do not wish to imply (earlier post) that, given sufficient – or even unlimited – time, Brian would necessarily always be wholly convincing on traffic management matters! But the principle of divided attention remains.

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Following up on Hugh's point from the AA last night that the structuring of traffic schemes around the ladder has an impact on the choice of roads used by drivers - is this really a point to be contested? - it concerns me that there is still muddled thinking at the Town Hall about the role of the Council in shaping traffic impact on it's residents lives. At one and the same time I am denied right of way along highways for which I amongst others pay by the installation of rising bollards at a cost to, amongst others, me. Then, I am told that because Wightman Rd was designated [some time around 1914 I think] as a B road that it and its residents are equipped - in 2009 - to serve as a local distributor route in Council policy. I've heard the same myth now at area assemblies from both Cllr Haley and the Council Officer for Highways. It is a myth that B roads were designated due to features of their construction other than the points they link. In other words, roads were classified by useage. And that, I think is Hugh's point. Decisions taken by Councils can change usage - as in the Gardens, for example - so the structuring of traffic schemes around the ladder affects the choice of roads made by drivers. If you close the Gardens, block up Green Lanes and ask TfL how to speed up the buses I wonder where they'll advise that the traffic should go?
Thanks Paul. You understood my point. What Tony said in response to my question was that Traffic chooses certain routes and we can't do much about that. A very odd response in the context of this debate and in light of road schemes elsewhere in the borough, including in out own Gardens.

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