Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Salisbury Mansions history
Hi all,
I’m new to the site, and was wondering if anyone had any info on an old river which runs underneath Salisbury Mansions? My husband lived on Kimberley Gardens and on overlooking his window one day (around 40 years ago) towards Salisbury Mansions, he could see a set of stairs via an open doorway, to what appeared to be a river and a small wooden boat!
About 18 years ago we contacted some of the residents of the Mansions and someone did respond to us saying there was a river running beneath and a wooden boat was used on river the many years ago however, the river was since boarded up, as it began flooding the downstairs. We couldn’t get any further info after that, as the resident no longer lived there.
Does anyone have any further info on the underground river, and the path that the boat may have taken?
Thanks in advance.
Tags for Forum Posts: salisbury mansions, st ann's hospital, stonebridge brook
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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I'm not sure what your husband saw, but to the best of my knowledge no river ever ran under the mansions. About fifty to a hundred yards to the north was the Stonebridge Brook and half a mile or so to the south was the Hermitage Brook. Whilst both still flow underground in culverts, neither is under the mansions.
Below are excerpts form the 1869 and 1893 OS maps (in that order). The Stonebridge Brook is visible on both, though by the later one, it had been partly culverted.
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By way of incidental history, did you know that Walter Smith (Associate of London College of Music) used to run a bijou orchestra from number 52 after they were let go from the Coliseum Cinema on Green Lanes? It looks like he himself let the orchestra go after a few months!
Kinematograph Weekly, 26 February 1914
Kinematograph Weekly, 08 October 1914
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Permalink Reply by Mac on
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Hi Hugh,
Nice to meet you and thanks for the reply.
I spoke to my husband again and he says that another 2 neighbours (both are passed away now), confirmed the existence of the stairs, river and a boat underneath Salisbury Mansions. About 18 years ago, he also approached staff at Bruce Castle who confirmed there was either a brooke or stream running under the Mansions from an extremely old map of around 1600.
Sounds like it could be one of those ‘lost rivers’. In Walthamstow where we are now, there is a lost river in Upper Walthamstow which shows on none of the old maps in the vicinity (the Phille Brook). Although it does show up in maps of Leyton only. Thames Water and an architect who held maps of ancient waterways in Upper Walthamstow confirmed its existence.
From Google Earth, it appears to be covered up. If you ever do investigate this further, do let me know, as we’d be really interested in the find!
thanks again!
Rebecca
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Hi Rebecca, nice to meet you too. The earlier of the two ordnance survey maps of which I published extracts, was made before any of the area's streams were culverted. All the small streams of Haringey are marked on it. I would be very surprised if there's any unmarked one.
The only map of the area from around 1600 is the Dorsett Map, from 1619 (you can buy a copy from Bruce Castle). Below is an excerpt from the map, of the area where Salisbury Mansions was built (the map was made with south to the top - Hangers Greene is where the junction of Blackboy Lane and St. Ann's Road now is). Again, the map shows Stonebridge Brook, but not where Salisbury Mansions was built.
As to investigation, the topic of Haringey's 'lost' streams has been well investigated by respected historians Albert Pinching and David Dell. You can buy a copy of their book, Haringey's Hidden Streams Revealed at the Hornsey Historical Society. It tells the same story I'm telling you, and gives maps showing the exact same course as is marked on the maps I've reproduced above.
In, fact the summary map published in the book uses the same 1869 OS map that I've used, edited to more clearly show the rivers, as you can see in the extract below. The long bold line shows the Stonebridge Brook, about fifty to a hundred yards north of where Salisbury Mansions was built: the shorter one is the Hermitage Brook.
With regards to the view from Bruce Castle staff, I would be very surprised indeed if they'd say anything different to what I'm telling you. However, it might be that there is/was a non-riverine water course that I've never heard about. Perhaps, a branch of the Stonebridge was created to service St Ann's Hospital. Having said that, I'm probably one of the few people to have sat at the London Metropolitan Archives and thoroughly gone through all the hospital's Board minute books for the first thirty years of its life. I found no mention of it there. Neither have I come across anything in any contemporary newspaper report about the hospital's first half-century. If this water course had been built for the hospital, it would have been very expensive and very disruptive and would certainly have been an issue covered in board meetings or the press. (The public were very vocal about the hospital when it first opened, The local press loved it!)
Of course absence of evidence doesn't mean this water-course didn't exist.
The only other options I can think of are a water service to the piano factory that used to stand on the corner of Warwick Gardens and St Ann's Road (later the Ever-Ready central labs). But it would have probably been a prohibitively expensive venture for one factory.
Or, perhaps, what your husband saw might have been a sewer. My knowledge of Victorian sewers is not something I'd choose as a specialist subject for Mastermind. But, if what your husband saw was a sewer and it was big enough for a boat, I'd have thought that would mean that it would have been a major one. To the best of my knowledge, the nearest large sewer in those days would have been Bazalgette's Northern High Level Sewer. But I think that pretty much followed the course of the Hackney Brook which, at its nearest point to Harringay flowed/flows through Stoke Newington along the northern edge of Clissold Park and Abney Cemetery.
It's not infrequently the case that a challenge to my well-worn assumptions throws up new facts. I'd be tickled pink if that proves to be the case on this occasion. So, I'll drop the curator of Bruce Castle Museum a note, point her to this discussion and ask her to send me her view on the issue for publication. Deborah is hugely knowledgable about Haringey's history. In the unlikely even that she doesn't know the answer, she'll say so. But whatever she says, I am confident will be correct. I will publish her answer here and you will of course be free to follow up with her.
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Since I've restarted this thread, a quick update re my email to Bruce Castle. I did get a reply but forgot to come back and comment. Their view is the same as mine. Anyone is, of course. welcome to contact them, should they need direct confirmation or have any other questions
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My husband says the 3rd post-war building you can see (to the right) was built around the 60s. The other two to the left of this building have been recently built, as there was nothing there when my husband was young in the 80s.
The river appeared to be underneath the ‘back garden’ of the the left ground floor apartment of 46-51 Salisbury Mansions (when looking from the front of the mansions).
On Google Earth, there now appears to be something covering where the steps and river would have been in the back garden of that apartment.
I do wonder whether it could be a lost river (which we also have in Walthamstow, and does not show up on any of the old maps at all). Here, the Vestry House Museum has no knowledge at all of this river at!
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An email about the St. Ann's Hospital site that I received today from HoL member VivY, included the following.
My colleague related being told by the admin staff, that in the basement of one of the nurses blocks was access, via a door and a few steps, to an underground lake - with boats!
The Estates manager could only give me information that there is a Victorian underground water holding area, to the south of site.
Another Estates staff member, who has been on site since the late 1980s, was able to verify that there was a spring onsite and it was capped with concrete when the Greentrees wards were built.
These conversations were of interest to me as they relate to the hospital's history, but I also wondered if they might relate to this post.
There is/was a water tower at St Ann's and I understand that these were often built along with a supporting underground reservoir. So that would make sense of the water holding area story. There could even have been a small dinghy kept for maintenance purposes. It’s not even unreasonable to imagine that there was a spring which fed it. However, the mention of stairs to it from the nurse's block doesn’t ring so true. My guess would be that any steps would have been from the water tower.
This story might make sense the Salisbury Mansions claims. I can’t imagine that the mansions would have had its own reservoir, but Viv's email does make me wonder if the Chinese whispers of history mixed up a community memory of the St Ann’s reservoir/spring with stories about the mansions.
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Thanks for the info Hugh, it’s really intriguing! Any possibility that you could pass on my email address to the local lady ‘Viv’; would be really good to have a conversation with her about this, as my husband has known this area for more than 40 years. Thanks!
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I lived at number 40. There is a covered waterway in the back garden in the properties. It is connected to the underground passageway under the flats (to access the back garden). When the water level is too high it floods the passageway. This might be what was seen?? There is a pump in the end flat to drain the system.
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