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Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!

I hope all you who have the vote in Harringay will remember tonight ( and certainly other nights to come ) and at the next election vote out the incompetent shower responsible for the introduction of the LTN.

My weekly 5-minute journey from Wightman Road to Green Lanes took 45 minutes, including  30 minutes to go the length of Hampden Road. Yes, I know that there was a burst water main. But in happier times traffic would have been distributed across the roads now blocked off and not confined to Green Lanes. Yes, I know that I could have taken a bus to sit in the same traffic jam as I did this evening but in any case there aren't any buses between my house and the bottom of Effingham Road. 

I understand the concerns of those residents living in the LTN who hope that the pollution in their streets will be reduced but don't the residents of Green Lanes, Turnpike Lane and Wightman Road breathe ? don't their children have lungs ?. Where did the Council think the LTN traffic would go ? 

And please don't suggest to this disabled person that I could have cycled.  I couldn't.

Tags for Forum Posts: low traffic neighbourhoods, traffic

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I’ve lived on Warham since 1984.  Green Lanes used to be far worse than it is now.  Getting the bus by what is now the Tesco Metro to Manor House during the rush hour was a half hour journey.  Getting off the bus at Manor House I used to walk to home and my husband took the bus.  I always got home first.

The problem was that every Garden road and Ladder road disgorged a constant stream of traffic onto The Lanes, holding up every junction.  The increase in traffic on Warham wasn’t the Gardens closure per se but the active directing of traffic from St Ann’s Road up Salisbury Road and then via Warham to Wightman as a way to avoid Green Lanes.
 
The one constant in all these years is Green Lanes.  It’s easy to throw the blame at Haringey but as it is a priority route nothing much can change unless TfL are on board and I get a feeling that they aren’t inclined to be so.

Michael — I entirely agree with you that GL is the perpetual thorn in the side, which is why I believe sorting that out is a far greater priority than using a big stick to tell LTN residents to walk everywhere. Haringey seems never to have taken a holistic view of the area’s real traffic problems and tried to make it easier for its residents to get around, because they’d rather make “four wheels bad, two wheels good” gestures with CCTV and flowerpots instead.

Yes, of course it would need major collaboration with TfL, the GLA, the DfT et al to make changes (eg restricting traffic flow at the N Circular junction, prioritising buses, removing parking, etc, etc), but that’s the nettle nobody’s grasping and why I get p’d off that the source of the problem isn’t being tackled. While people still need to commute from outer boroughs and other counties to central London, Harringay will always be in the firing line. Closing roads and hoping drivers will also be p’d off enough just to go somewhere else — which is fundamentally the LTN philosophy — while not providing viable alternatives for those who live in the LTNs themselves, such as better, more reliable public transport, is not the answer. If the council wants to change people’s behaviour, the alternatives have to be better, not worse.

The LTNs are designed to encourage people to use the alternative methods. We have two undergrounds, over four direct to central bus lines, and two overgrounds within a 1 mi stretch on GL. LTN philosophy is telling people to walk to your nearest transit as most people definitely do not have to commute via car to central everyday. that's a myth. 

Absolutely. I can just about see driving to work off you are going from Green Lanes to Watford for eg but anywhere within London not so much.

Allegra — Two points: first, bus services are as good as the traffic will allow, so if extra traffic forced onto GL slows them to a crawl they are de facto far less appealling (even without the, for now, slightly-rescinded overall TfL cuts to services). Secondly, if, as I understand it, traffic surveys point very, very strongly to Harringay’s traffic problems stemming primarily from traffic originating outside the borough — ie Herts, Essex, Enfield, etc, — not from internal borough car movements, which are the tip of the iceberg. If so, commuters from outer London and neighbouring counties aren’t going to be influenced by buses, tubes or Overground in Harringay, hence my arguments in other posts here for GL needing to be the primary focus of attention, not side roads — and my perhaps not-entirely-serious suggestion of a campaign urging those in the outer areas to walk or cycle into central London. Probably not a message likely to be received well in Enfield, New Barnet or Potters Bar, for example.

I still don't see why someone from Potters Bar or Enfield or New Barnet wont get on a perfectly ok train from those places into central London.

This is what I never understand, where are all these people parking in central London, there surely can't be enough spaces for all of them.

Julie — Who knows? But there must be somewhere or why are they driving through (not to) Harringay? The council’s LTN csse is predicated on the curse of Waze sending drivers to “rat-run” through streets that — in my 30-year experience of St Ann’s — are actually some of the quietest in London, so the vehicles must be going to/coming from somewhere. Many commenters on here blame commuter traffic from outer London, Essex, Herts, etc, but I don’t know if this can be substantiated; perhaps they’re all on a mission from Hackney to Barnet or v/v….? This problem needs to be dealt with at source and in Green Lanes, not in the side streets.

Elizabeth — I’d agree with you about choosing train over car (not least as I don’t drive), but apparently thousands of others don’t. What I’m trying to say is that the bulk of the problem emanates outside Harringay, not inside. LTNs primarily make life difficult, time-consuming and inconvenient for local residents, forcing more traffic onto major roads that are already crowded and sacrificing the wellbeing of those living on so-called “boundary roads” for the benefit of the enclaves within. But the major problem of through traffic starts miles away. Telling Harringay residents to walk or cycle isn’t going to deal with the root causes, so sorting out Green Lanes should be the priority because that will give the most effective help. I don’t have stats for traffic that doesn’t originate in the borough, but I’m sure there are many on here who do; I’ve always read, on various HoL threads, that the biggest throughput in the area is commuter traffic from elsewhere, so isn’t that where to start?

Can you see the carpark in this map, just south of Harringay off Tollington?

That's a school, the carpark is usually full during school hours. Do you think they pay for that parking? There are lots of other examples.

Don, one of the main impacts of an LTN is that it discourages through traffic. The current congestion is caused because traffic passing through the borough can't cut through the LTNs, so they are forced onto the main artery roads. The result of this is that they are (a) discouraged by the car use and choose another, greener mode of transport, which is more likely for local residents (b) independently choose another route to avoid the congestion or (c) are taken another route by their satnavs avoiding the congestion on the snarled up main artery road. This is a logic that few people who are anti-LTN seem to grasp, while showing little respect for the evidence of this proven by established LTNs across the world. You can't stop journeys starting and ending outside of Haringey, but you can do something about it when they get here. 

You constantly say that the public transport isn't good enough for those who live in/near the LTNs but I just don't think that is true.

London has, by far, the best public transport in the UK and pretty frequently rated top ten in the world. There may be certain journeys that are difficult or accessibility issues but, for the majority, it's not as if taking public transport is a great hardship.

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