How can we get our local politicians and other public servants to post regularly in this forum?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on September 29, 2014 at 17:23

Means you get the land now but pay for it later from your profits (on the land you didn't pay for). Wish my mortgage company would have let me do that.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on September 29, 2014 at 17:42

They sort of will - it's a 'rent-to-buy' mortgage. You rent out your existing property and they lend you the money to buy a new place to move into.

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Permalink Reply by Gordon Peters on October 3, 2014 at 20:20

Think I lost my last reply!

Yes, particularly Harringayonline is a site where lots of ordinary concerns and local interests get shared or represented or just talked about openly, and that's something that conventional politics completely misfires on.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on October 3, 2014 at 21:33

So what does that mean for you, as a candidate?  

Do you mean to 'keep an eye' on the forum so as to be more in touch with local issues in an efficient way?

Is there something of political value to you that you can get from this place?

For instance, do you think that you may gain more votes due to posting here than if you did not?

Sorry to come over all cross-examiney, I genuinely want to know why without asking leading questions.

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Permalink Reply by pamish on October 3, 2014 at 21:53

There are plenty of Green 'issues' around the borough that I'd like to hear what the party thinks. I get their national FB posts, but those local campaigns and problems are more what I'm (parochially) interested in.  eg the Ermine/Plevna planning discourse, and of course our daily struggles with Veolia and with what can be done to get individuals to realise that only they can sort their own rubbish.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on October 3, 2014 at 22:01

Thanks Pamish - don't suppose you'd like to ask Gordon Peters, Green Party prospective candidate, would you? He seems to be open to it. Then you could maybe pinpoint more exactly what you want.  

Do the parties publish anything specific about current local issues? Is there a list of what are considered to be local issues? If not, we could start one...

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Permalink Reply by pamish on October 3, 2014 at 22:50

OK, dear Green candidates (and other party members?) what do you think are the local issues that differentiate Green and the other parties?  Six months on, I can't remember anyone's manifestos, so where are you at now?  I don't see a lot of difference between local and national policy in the Labour group of elected LBH councillors. (I do hear dissent from national policy within the ordinary non-elected Labour members, but they are not the ones in thrall to big money.)   I'm (just, still) a Labour party member because I hate what the Tories are doing and see the only way to stop them is by getting Labour back in, but my personal politics/beliefs are Green. I have heard, vaguely, that a lot of the new elected Councillors are Greenish, what have you heard?

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Permalink Reply by Gordon Peters on October 4, 2014 at 9:24

Our vision is of much more priority being given to making Haringey safer, healthier and with local participation in determining what money is spent on, not just token consultations and following the government imposed austerity agenda. Perhaps I can say more later but for now if you look at a href="http://www.haringeygreens.org.uk>" target="_blank">http://www.haringeygreens.org.uk>; you will see local as well as wider issues.

We campaigned vigorously, with others, against the  atrocious waste of public money by the North London Waste Authority on nominating Pinkham Way as a giant waste burning site [which has for now backtracked on]; we advocate supported housing for people with mental health problems and a much better service for mental health at St.Anns Hospital site; we want retrofitting of many more houses in Haringey to help with fuel poverty, and we think the Council could do much more to create local energy and help both households and new jobs with its own energy firm...and many related functions.

We are entirely with the Green Party policy nationally of a wealth tax, living wage and moving towards citizens income; at the same time in more immediate terms we are against the current social security policies of punishing the poor, and see Labour Party policy on austerity as only continuing that, even if not in quite the same way as the the Tory led coalition.

These are a few examples. The website has an overall manifesto statement from the last local election, and of course there will be one before the coming general election.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on October 4, 2014 at 11:13

Thanks Gordon - for me it's really excellent to see the policies laid out like this. I looked at the website but there's so much on it it's hard to see the local issues. By the way, this link http://london.greenparty.org.uk/policies/vote-for-the-common-good-i... is broken.

Are you positioning yourself as a potential opposition who will press the Council to do more 'Green' things?  If so, do your policies not depend on your political skills in getting the Council to do what your minority want rather than the size of your minority?  In other words, given that you will not have more voter 'power' than the ruling party, is it by 'speaking up' that you expect to implement your policies?

Anything related to Harringay?  Can you expand on these and any other specific local policies:

a) much more priority being given to making Haringey safer, healthier

b) local participation in determining what money is spent on

c) supported housing for people with mental health problems

d) a much better service for mental health at St.Anns Hospital site

e) retrofitting of many more houses in Haringey to help with fuel poverty

f) do much more to create local energy and help both households and new jobs with its own energy firm ... and many related functions.

I hope this is worth your while Gordon because I'm sure you've got loads of other things to do - I'm a strong supporter of 'green' ideas (who wouldn't be!) but do not intend to vote Green. I just think that a better informed electorate is likely to make better voting decisions.

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Permalink Reply by Gordon Peters on October 5, 2014 at 10:15

Chris,

Yes of course we would want the Council to do 'more green things' and accept that there are various ways to influence this, election being only one.

I don't see politics as just about getting into power but as challenging the use - and abuse - of power, and where possible showing how it could be different, especially with alternatives to following a corporate agenda and pandering to big business. Hence supporting community activity and smaller scale self help, particularly residents and friends of neighbourhoods, rather than top down 'regeneration' which under-values existing residents of our localities. As contributors to this site will know well enough, there are plenty good examples in Haringey, from Lordship to Railway Fields to Muswell Hill.

For the web pages it is best just to Google 'haringeygreens' rather than the London site.

On your asking to expand on policies mentioned, there is a manifesto page on the haringeygreens site, but if necessary I guess I could do that one at a time if anyone wanted. For now, let me explain the mental health at St.Anns [as many people still tend to think of Greens as just about trees and parks and bikes, important as these are]. The issue is a very serious crisis in mental health provision in Haringey, lack of beds, poor ward [to be refurbished in plan of the trust which runs the service], extreme shortage of qualified staff, and very little chance of early or preventive support and even less of after-care or help to live in accommodation. Supported housing is then one practical investment that could be made on the site of the hospital, not just new homes, many of which will not be locally affordable. As have some others, we are pushing the Clinical Commissioning Group for Haringey, and the Council's Health and Wellbeing Board to do much more, and put  more money aside for mental health.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on October 5, 2014 at 11:38

Thanks Gordon - I googled and found the Haringey Greens site which contains a 5-point summary of your policies. I'd like to pick apart each one and try to understand where you are coming from and why the policies are what they are - you up for that?  If so, I'll create another thread.

If that in fact the best way of going about this?  I know you'll have limited time as you're busy campaigning and I didn't want to divert you from that.  It's just that I and many of the people I meet know of the Greens in general but it seems to me that the Greens are making a play for the mainstream in British politics - is that right?

If so, I'm even more interested but I suppose you could say that it is off-topic as we are talking about local issues and a local MP.  Where is the forum we can talk about this in?

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To me (I'm probably wrong) there are two things here - what you intend to do in power and how you intend to go about it. Without wishing to appear even implicitly to criticise the incumbent, I never got to hear what she would do locally if elected and have no idea how she goes about it day-to-day.  Do you know?  

It's relevant because we as voters are subject to two local political forces - the local Council and our local MP. I guess most of us know the stated intentions of our local council and their manifestation - we see them every day.

The local MP however does seem pretty invisible to me and I wondered about the mechanism for implementation given that she seems to have no discernable local effect? Are you saying that the very fact that an MP is supporting a particular local approach will cause that issue to be settled in your favour? I think she wrote to TfL to ask them to move a bus stop in Muswell Hill and that people complained that it made things worse, but that can't surely be all she's done for the constituency can it? I suppose that MPs spend as little time as possible in the constituency as Westminster is so much more fun and I guess there are no laws against that, so presumably she doesn't need to do anything at all here, does she?

Were she to try, it would seem to me very 'human' to oppose a rep from one party if your own party does not agree. As the Libs and the Labs seem to disagree, if I were Haringey Council, anything that the Libs wanted I would start out being dead against.  So the chances of a Lib Dem MP holding sway with a Labour Council seem remote to me.  They of course would show her the respect she deserves, paying lip service - but surely they will not help her implement Lib-Dem policies.

So she's on a losing wicket before she starts - better to keep her head down as open defeat might be damaging. Same's true of the Greens, isn't it?  Any good local ideas you come up with they'll pinch and claim for themselves, won't they, then beat you over the head as ineffective? There can't be a Green policy that only the Greens can implement, can there?

Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on October 5, 2014 at 15:51

I've found many interesting ideas in the writing of Cass Sunstein. One in particular is his use of the phrase "echo chamber" as an analogy to describe how groups polarise. So people end up mainly speaking to - and perhaps mixing with - like minded others. They hear and read similar views which confirm, amplify and strengthen their pre-existing opinions and judgements.

In the extreme this becomes like a sect. Or "Groupthink" where sticking to the same 'line' and everyone being 'on message' can become irrational and dysfunctional. This is what can happen in a political party. Especially where one small group takes over and uses their power to stamp-out dissent.

"Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative viewpoints, by actively suppressing dissenting viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences." (Groupthink - Wilkipedia 5 October 2014)

Any such group seeking to influence and control its members has a number of methods available. These include appeals to loyalty - both personal and institutional - and various rewards and sanctions.  Both can be arbitrary; for example, on the whim, or at the grace and favour/disfavour - of the Leader or leaders. But a nominally democratic group will have rules, procedures and sanctions. (Up to and including expulsion.)

When I was a Haringey Labour councillor this included rules about who was entitled to post stuff online and who had to approve the content - with power to ban/censor/sanction any such posting if disapproved.  If a councillor is in the council's "cabinet", the doctrine of "cabinet responsibility" has been transposed from Parliament - with no justification I can see - to gag "cabinet members. "Backbench" Labour councillors will be subject to similar attempted gagging. 

Usually this is carried out by the Party whips. It's not necessarily at the explicit request of the Leader. That wouldn't always be practical. Instead it's what's known as: "working towards the Leader".

Of course, some people will not find my interpretation to their liking.  In their echo chamber a different set of messages are constantly repeated.  Including the message that dissent and challenge = disloyalty.

Fortunately, nobody needs to take anything I write on trust.  Instead anyone can check the facts themselves. No need to simulate or speculate. For example, put questions directly to councillors. Questions such as: "Do you post on this and other local websites? How often? And if not, why not?

Another question: Does your political Group have a communications, social media, or PR policy which members have to sign-up to?  Answer 'Yes'?  Then request a copy.  If you pose these questions and get no response within a reasonable time, you may safely assume that the answers are as I describe.

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