Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Haringey Elections Results
Results as they come are available at Haringey Votes.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on
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Welcome first time poster and fellow Crouch Ender!
>> In a ward which on the face of it would seem to be prime Conservative territory
Maybe in the last millenium, but no longer - it was Labour for years (Hornsey MP was Barbara Roche, Labour, from 1992-2005), then Lib Dem since, but few remember any Tories, even in Highgate. In distant Stroud Green, arguably a more 'Lib Dem' place, all three Lib Dems were replaced by Labour.
>>It is well known that Haringey is one of the worst run borough's in the country
This is a lie, plain and simple, hammered home by the Lib Dems for years. Haringey has a lot of poverty, but it appears in various positions in the various league tables. Maybe a more important point is that, notwithstanding your colourful views, we know for sure that most people want Labour in power, and they want Labour to have more power than previously. That needs respecting. Maybe people realised that the constant promotion of the lie that Labour-run Haringey were 'failing' was what confirmed people's realisation that you can't trust the Lib Dems.
Whenever you attempt to consider a view that encompasses local people, please accept that those people who live here are Labour supporters, and have been Labour supporters all their lives, through thick and thin, over fifty years now - they are the majority.
>>"can do" attitude in the ward
Completely agree that David Winskill has more than earned the respect he is held in throughout the ward, not just due to his high integrity and unremittingly hard work on behalf of all of us, but also because he's a really nice guy who's care is genuine.
Have to ask though, what did the Lib Dems achieve in Crouch End over the last decade? Ought Harringay to have them too? They spent a lot of time and money rubbishing the Council, but when it came to alternatives to Labour's ideas for us, they had none I can find, except to impose budget cuts even more draconian than the Tories. The most important development by far in my eyes is the re-opening of the huge campus that is Hornsey Town Hall, bang in the middle of our town - a place David once worked at, cares a lot about and has had his turn at being a Director of the org set up by the council to represent the local view. Did the Lib Dems make any difference at all to the outcome? No. Are they in favour of what is happening? Nobody knows. Is there a more important development in Crouch End in living memory? No.
Now that Crouch End have returned two Labour councillors, there is an even bigger gulf between the Lib Dems and Labour in our ward.
A big difference in theory is that Labour can actually get things done in the ward, whereas all the Lib Dems seemed to be able to do was use the reporting system to alert Council Officers to problems residents can just as easily report themselves.
What they couldn't seem to do was influence the Council to make any substantive improvements that were 'Lib Dem' in nature - what would 'Lib Dem' in nature be, exactly?
What improvements have been brought to Crouch End by the Lib Dems? I got a lot of leaflets put through the door claiming 'victory' every time the council did something they agreed with. 20mph speed limit? A win for Lib dems after years of hard campaigning! (Lie) Pinkham Way defeated - it's those cheeky Lib Dems again! (Lie) Whittington Hospital saved? Thank goodness for plucky little ConDemmers! (Lie).
The sad result of these past Lib Dem years of negative campaigning and no ideas at all that advanced is that people's dislike of the council was fanned and Crouch Enders became apathetic, not bothering to even express a view, except to believe that the council was rubbish - makes it even more amazing that so many Labour Councillors got elected here. How can Haringey Council justify spending even a penny on the rich West when the East (across the 'Berlin Wall' of a railway line between us) is in such obvious need? Is is right to spend the minimum here because of that?
The question for me is, can Crouch Enders be bothered now there's a real chance for change or will they remain indifferent whatever the Council proposes? My advice to the new Councillors is to square up to the council-bashing and help people realise that they can't have it both ways - either put up or shut up.
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Permalink Reply by Seema Chandwani on
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Hi TBD
I find this argument a bit odd (not yours per se, but in general). Yes 60% did not vote, but those 60% had the opportunity to vote and by not voting they gave the mandate to the 40% who did vote to vote on their behalf.
By saying any win (political elections, union strikes etc) can be measured by those who did not vote is stretching the truth. If they were not allowed to vote, I'd agree with you.
There has been apathy in politics in the UK for decades not just unique to Harringay or this election. I think compulsory voting is a must.
As for the Harringay Vote: My geeky observations are below:
- The turnout for this year was 40.5% | 2010 was 59.5% | 2006 was 36.6%
- 2010 was a general election and this brings out more people as its in the news more, and they have things like leader TV debates etc.
- In 2006 Karen got in with 1308 votes. Gina 1254 | LD Carol 1159
- In 2010 Karen got in with 2244, Gina 2159 and David 1987
- In 2014 Gina 1683, Emine 1372 and James 1395.
- The proportion of votes is similar thorough the years just raises in quantity due to turnout. Therefore the mandate given to David Karen and Gina previously is the same if for Gina, Emine and James
What this suggests is a number of things
- The additional 4% of voters who came out this year & not 2006 were Labour voters
- Possibly more Lib Dems stayed at home?
- Maybe more people switched to Labour from Lib Dems?
It was not the Greens as their vote in Harringay yesterday was consistent with votes in 2010 and 2006.
What costed the Lib Dems their party has been their decision of going from a left alternative to a coalition with a very right wing Tory Govt.
Locally, what I think let the Haringey Lib Dems down was one of the worst election campaigns I think I have ever seen!!! Having read their leaflets etc, it contained little or no policies, no real understanding on what they would do if they took over the council. What had they achieved? I actually could not believe it.
I spent some time in Brent and actually saw the same leaflets, using the same tactic. They are down to 1 Lib Dem in the whole borough, they had control up until 2010.
Karen and David are really nice people, I spent the morning with Karen at a polling station and hope to go out with her on a photography shoot soon.
But the Harringay voting population ALL had a choice and they made that choice yesterday.
I hope you are well TBD and we see you on Twitter soon, go on you know ya wanna
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Permalink Reply by Mark Priestley on
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Hi Seema
I agree with your point that voting should be compulsory. The one major issue is that their is an assumption that their is somebody/ or a party that you would consider giving your vote too. You could of course you put in a category of "None of the Above" (although this may well end up being the biggest party!).
I also think that more people would vote if they could do so online rather than just in person or via postal vote. This is something that all politicians should consider introducing.
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Hi Mark
My family are pretty odd as voting has been a core part of our education so we feel it is a civic duty to vote. However my younger sister (now 32) only casted her first vote in 2012's Mayoral Election! So even with that core value, she was apathetic.
I worked on a project in 2012 about getting young people to vote and their reasons were a lot more complex than people report. For example;
- Some young people thought you could only vote if you own the house!
- Some thought you could only vote if you paid taxes & had a job!!
- Some assumed you automatically get a card like you get an NI card and had no idea how to get one.
However, turnout is not based on unregistered voters so Im waffling :)
Online voting could be "dangerous" for electoral fraud. I think there are ways around it though and I think it would help greatly.
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Lovely quotes, thanks! I also like Candide - "we must cultivate our garden"
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Hi TBD
I would say that the problems that you describe in your 2nd paragraph are also issues in Crouch End as I've experienced the majority of them first hand. I'd also add in the Council cash cow that is the CPZ into the mix as well.
Turnout was disappointing but then that is often the reality with local elections. I personally would like to see compulsory voting but I imagine that it would be unlikely to be introduced.
The Lib Dems fought a poor campaign in Crouch End. Labour were very active and came very close to getting all 3 councillor spots that were up for grabs. As I said earlier I was surprised at this because they've been very quiet in this ward over the last number of years. One wonders whether it is the National picture rather than the Local picture that influences voter choice. I suspect in this case it was the former.
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Hi TBD - nice to hear from you!
I don't defend Labour - I have a set of views that they are best placed to advance, so I support them - they work for me
I'm advocating for the way I want things to be, knowing full well that in this (imperfect) world, not everyone agrees me (shame!) and I am only one person with weird ideas, so why should anyone do what I want? Safer to get together and follow the group will, even at the cost of having to agree to something I don't like, in the hope that I can convince.>>In reality, 80% of the population is governed by a tiny minority
In reality, 80% of our lives are not governed, we're free! The government we have to suffer is a tiny price to pay for freedom - so what if the council is a bit corrupt, we're so much better off than many other places - we're rich.
A lot of people have the cheek to bleat one-sidedly that they really want things to be different, but ask them to fill in a postal vote and they won't - who is to blame for that?
Look at litter if you want more evidence - people here live lives that are nasty, brutish and short. Where is the community spirit? Why, given the chance, do so many people issue hate-tweets and use anonymity to be horrible to everyone? THe vast majority don't give a stuff about each other, don't engage, don't vote.
The brutal truth is, most people could not even be bothered to vote, so they have lost the right to have their opinions considered if you ask me.
It is our responsibility and we are shirking it. We are superbly lucky that our reps are as fair-minded and conscientious as they are - why shouldn't they ignore the lumpen proletariat and just do whatever they fancy now they're in power for four years with no need to win votes? Why do they constantly try their best to reflect what people want? They seem genuinely prepared to do anything there is a call for, but there just isn't a call for much - must be depressing.
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I wish the problems were so unique in Harringay that you really had to live there to solve them, but in this decentralised world decisions that ought to be taken exclusively by locals are not - in most council areas it's perfectly normal to live in one ward and represent another. Every ward has it's own unique combination of issues, but there are simply not enough locals engaged with them to get anywhere near a representative voice, so that requirement has been sidestepped.
I think you are wrong about the greens - they make a huge difference. I hope we live in a world where good ideas from every source get adopted and they have superb ideas. I am old enough to remember some green ideas that were ridiculed when the greens first proposed them, but are now accepted everywhere - they have won the argument time and time again and the world is a much better place because of them. They won't get elected because the art of politics seems to be to seize on anything popular and 'own' it. So all the parties claim to be green and it takes the wind out of their sails. They've earned universal respect though, haven't they? Once their manifesto spills over to things not traditionally 'green' they begin to sound a lot less credible though, don't they? Their message is a bit tired - where is the 'new' 'green' thinking? Everyone wants a greener Harringay, but what is it about the greens here that we would have if they were in power? The only place they are in power as far as I know is in Brighton were they took over from the Tories and are a minority administration, even though they implemented even more savage cuts than them, upped the Council Tax each year and are now asking for a 4.75% rise in it - how would that play here?
Another big mistake we all make because we are human, is sweeping statements characterising people and parties and even whole governments as if we could encapsulate them in a single phrase. It's the basis of prejudice that I consider a predominantly male attribute - men more than women seem under pressure to supply answers, so the society strives to equip them by reducing complexity ad absurdum. The Daily Mail trades on sound bites that are easy to remember, easy to parrot, but brain dead. There's an awful lot of that on this forum - people baldly stating ill-considered snap judgements as facts based on what others are like based on minimal contact, little evidence and a lot of pre-formed attitudes and views. Trying to build viewpoints on enormous generalities.
I honestly don't know what the Lib Dems stand for, for instance - I can't think of a single LibDem attribute only they possess. Yet people talk as if they were a consistent 'brand'. I bet you could ask HoLites to take a LibDem quiz like this anti-UKIP one and they would fail it - most people here seem to have almost no idea what most political parties stand for or why, and yet they all have views as to who is right and who is wrong. It's prejudice, isn't it?
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Our political system is based on the idea that, once elected, reps can do whatever they want. It's a terrible idea but it's the best we can do. We have suffered a systemic failure since the crash - earlier if you look at the inexorable rise in inequality - even the future is unevenly distributed. I think the answer is a global wealth tax, as proposed by your brilliant compatriot, Piketty. We can all try to build a sense of community but it's not going to happen, is it? There are too many transients. People genuinely want the anonymity the city offers. In some places, everyone know everyone else. Not here.
So, we can continue to enjoy ourselves in this HoL imaginary world - it's whatever we want it to be for sure, but it bears little resemblance to any sort of reality.
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Permalink Reply by Carolyn Aisha on
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It's probably a bit late to reply to this. I haven't really posted any 'thoughts' on HOL despite being a regular reader, but given the introspection generated by this election this post struck me as perfectly representative of an 'issue' that I have with local politics. Technically, Labour are the only group that gets anything done because they control the council - but having someone looking over your shoulder will often help focus the mind. You only have to look at Harringay in 2014 compared to 2006 to see what a strong opposition can do. Particularly if the strong opposition work as hard as most LibDem councillors do. Names have repeatedly come up on this thread and others so I'm not going to rehash them - but the LibDems have stood many highly committed local campaigners and case workers. That isn't coincidence - that is part of the LibDem ethos. I'm not a fan of squeeze politics at all and where I may diverge slightly from some is that I think the LibDems should campaign on core principals - of which one is localism. So if LibDems are supporting and raising the voices of resident groups within Council to win campaigns that mean something to them - isn't that what they should be doing? At the end of the day I think Haringey is poorer for not having as strong an opposition voice as it could have - whatever political form that voice took. Local Councillors no matter their party often want the same things and are thwarted in fact by the limited powers that remain to them - Adversarial politics actually makes little sense in this context and if we had a fairer voting system could potentially be eradicated - while giving sectors of the community (those e.g that habitually vote Green) a voice they can not have in the current system.
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I think most people seem to suffer from the misconception that Labour controls everything the Council does, and that's plain wrong. They are certainly responsible and accountable, albeit only once every four years, but the 4000 people who make it happen every day report to highly-paid unelected executives, not cllrs. They're civil servants. They're the ones who deliver day after day. Almost all of the spending - on older people (the vast bulk of the budget), on education and on housing - is money spent the way central government dictate, isn't it?
Central government have stripped local government of real power haven't they? The right wing does not believe in government, hence huge budget cuts are accompanied by the abolition of 'regulation' under the 'localism'/'big society' agenda, stripping back the planning laws for instance so as to help developers privatise public space and let private sector jobs 'trickle down' - like the council houses that were sold off. We'll never get that public space back.
The right wing can find £1bn at short notice (last year) to interfere in a foreign war because we can use credit and it's a good investment that will save us money in the longer term. They do not believe that we can find, say, £100m to build new council houses because the country cannot afford it even though it's a good investment and we get our money back with interest and save a whole bunch of costs in not having to pay bed and breakfast hostels, in fostering healthy attitudes that leads to community cohesion etc etc. I read somewhere that 60% of all ex-council houses in London are now owned by landlords. So all that money we poured into the public good in the past ends up trousered by bankers due to the right-wing ethos of short-term private profit - nationalise the losses.
>>having someone looking over your shoulder
There's no evidence I can find that the Lib Dems want the Labour opposition to be stronger nationally, so why would Labour would want Lib Dems to be stronger locally? I haven't checked, but there is still one council in England where Lib Dems are in control isn't there? Is there evidence that they want the opposition to be stronger there then? Labour here did give a key role to a Lib Dem when there were more of them - Chair of the Scrutiny Panel - that's the body that 'looks over the shoulder'.
Now there are so few Lib Dems elected, I wouldn't be surprised if Labour gave them nothing, particularly as it looks from what I've heard Labour say on Youtube as if they were hurt by what they claimed were the dirty tactics they say the Lib Dems used to try to get elected here. I've certainly seen some of the Lib Dem blatant lies in the Lib Dem Mp's leaflets - bare-faced claims that Lib Dems got the 'Whittington sell-off halted'. I know some of the people most active and they were not doing it for any party, they were doing it for the good of us all and would never dream of 'cashing' in for political credit. Shame on all Haringey Lib Dems.
So, whatever the truth, the public do not seem to believe that the Lib Dems were an effective opposition. They laid claim to 'securing a consultation', but really, what did they do that justifies the claim that they were effective?
What we can all do is be critical friends to our borough - to do the looking over their shoulders ourselves - that's better than cllrs doing it because there is more expertise in Haringey than all of the 58 elected put together. Residents have a legal right to not only attend but to record almost all of the meetings. A huge number of documents are published in advance of decisions being made and people in Haringey have used those info sources to right wrongs. So we can all look over their shoulders - let's do that.
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I agree with you re: residents - but most of us have jobs and kids and other commitments - Councillors are elected and paid to do this for and with us. I don't think we can excuse Councillors on the basis that if people don't complain they don't need to do anything.
There is a big difference between what people do and what they say they do - and this applies to all political parties. I am talking about the act of support, not the political claim. In terms of political claims btw. can u stand by everything Labour said you'd achieve in the next four years? Honestly?
What the LibDems want as a party is a fairer electoral system and more locally devolved powers - that is good for Labour, the LibDems and others.
What I want is a borough where my kids can grow up happily, safely and successfully - I have a lot of time for some Labour Councillors that I have met and I'm sure certain members of the Green party would also make great Councillors alongside those many LibDem colleagues I have supported and will continue to support.
All the rest of this comes from seeing politics in adversarial times - I mean really, life is way too short...
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>>What the LibDems want as a party is a fairer electoral system and more locally devolved powers - that is good for Labour, the LibDems and others.
Well you might think so but they were elected partly on a promise to bring in a fairer system and Haringey voted for it more than most but they blew it - they didn't honour their promise and now it looks like they're dead in the water and will not get the chance in our lifetimes to try again - who's fault is that, exactly?
As to more locally-devolved powers, are you really of the opinion that you want Labour-controlled Haringey to have more power? Which power that they lack would you have them granted?
I hear what you want and who could disagree with you - (I want world peace too by the way) - without quoting Kennedy's 'Ask not what the US can do for you...' are you saying that you want Cllrs to do all the civic work so that you don't have to because you have more important things to do?
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I'm emigrating. Would the last moral person to leave Harringay please switch off the lights. They won't be lit again in our lifetime - speaking for myself, naturally.
Scattergun voting is all very well for theoretical democracy. It doesn't do much for justice or to reward the sort of community commitment (not to mention visibility) we have enjoyed from Karen Alexander and David Schmitz, and more recently Asha Kaur, in season and out of season. Local Lib-Dem people seem to have been blighted by the Coalition Brigade. Politics, however, is/are apparently a seasonal phenomenon, once every fourth year. But who said politics have anything to do with justice, community commitment, or on the streets visibility for that matter? A certain loyal following may have something to do with Gina's perennial bloom - or just apathy and ignorance or the usual low turnout. It's long after time she was gone. To my great good friend (in a facebooky sort of sense), Emine Ibrahim, hearty congratulations - you've proved some of us wrong. Now you have four years to prove yourself, and to prove that you really are anti-corruption, anti-machine, and even -but I suppose it would be too big an ask - anti-Kober. But as for this guy with the apparently Irish moniker, who the hell is he and where did he blow in from? Not so much a young deus ex machina, perhaps: more a creatura ex machina Novi Laboris, I'd bet. Prove me wrong, young Ryan.
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