Tags for Forum Posts: consultation, planning, regeneration
What specific changes need to happen to make consultation effective and how do you plan to bring them about?
Are you sincere in your question Chris?
My answer included a reference to last year's damning Supreme Court decision, that looked into a Haringey Consultation, following two lower courts (High Court and Court of Appeal).
I'm surprised that even that's not good enough for you. Most of what you say is directed at me, or at elected representatives generally, rather than at the four points I listed.
I have the impression that no answer I could give would ever satisfy you.
I'm sorry Clive, I'm really not attacking anyone, especially you - you had the guts to stand up and be counted and are worthy of everyone's respect simply for that big step. I hoped you'd understand that my problem is with your presumption that you can solve stuff empirically.
I'm keen for our Cllrs to stop messing with things they have no mandate for and concentrate on representing views, not colouring them in.
I'm keen for our Cllrs to stop messing with things they have no mandate for and concentrate on representing views, not colouring them in.
Chris I wasn't elected on a mandate of cleaning up Haringey Council consultations, but I and others are aware of wide dissatisfaction with them.
Above, Martin has gone to some trouble to list problems with just one example.
You seem to think that Council staff know best, or at least always know better than those whom the public elects.
I think one needs to distinguish between, on the one hand, quite technical fields such as food safety and those fields where less training specialist knowledge is needed. Such as community engagement
One doesn't need years of expert experience to know that a given consultation is cynical and/or worthless.
I have no doubt that some Council employees would feel they could run things more effectively than "politicians". However a bureaucracy more mighty than the one we have at present would be like the Soviet Union, that still has its admirers.
However, it wouldn't be a democracy would it?
Martin's catalogue of flaws deserves careful consideration.
As a new councillor and a wicked LibDem as well, what could you possibly know, Clive?
Reminds me of an old story about someone coming late to a party who complains: "Phew. It's really fuggy and pongy in here. How about opening the windows and letting in some fresh air?"
"How would you know?", replies the host. "You've only just arrived".
In a variation on the story the new guest replies: "That's exactly what they said to me when I visited South Africa under Apartheid."
Can't reply to the messages below due to the forum software limitations, so here goes.
Both you and Alan have experience as Cllrs and you both seem to suffer from the same delusion. That you can sit above any process and apply the will of the people to it. You can't.
Think of yourselves as hospital visitors. You can confirm to the patients what you think most people would feel in their situation.
You probably know nothing about their specific pain, never having felt it yourself. Please, don't start diagnosing, let alone thinking that the treatment you think you should order is better for the patients than that they're already being administered.
Please don't try to manage the hospital either - admin staff already do that job. The only thing you can do is probably to comfort the afflicted. Leave it to the staff and their management tier to do the work. You don't represent the patients (only a few want you there) and cannot speak for them as they all have different opinions.
The only thing you can legitimately do IMHO is to set policy - that's what politicians do. As you don't have a mandate (elected on a small minority) then trying to set policy for all is untenable really, but if you don't have that, what do you have?
We'll throw you that bone but look what has happened to politicians - they've failed so we've taken away a lot of their toys. Ever set a policy you're proud of?
We'll strip more and more power from you the more unprofessional you become, whilst the public themselves are more and more intensely interested in change through a political process you are strangers to. Disengagement and the lack of political consensus means change introduced by politicians gets cynically repealed by the next lot. Mass movements steered by interest groups (eg. 38 degrees, facebook campaigns, e-petitions etc) are the way change happens today, not via well-meaning local Cllrs. Where are your supporters?
So Chris, you think that Martin Ball and I are delusional.
Were the Supreme Court judges deluded when they set down principles for how consultation should be carried out? And said that Haringey's professional "staff and their management tier" had got it wrong?
Was Rev Paul Nicolson deluded when he campaigned for the case to go to court? Or the barristers involved, how's their grip on reality?
Martin Ball and I attended the Park Lane Planning consultation event and described what we saw.
I wasn't there to represent "the Will of the People". If I thought anything so silly, I really would be the fantasist you think me. Nor have I claimed to feel someone else's pain. But that doesn't preclude listening and empathy.
I apologise for replying to your posts, Chris. Both now and in the past. It appears that any disagreement or challenge to your closed, fixed views is unacceptable.
I wish this had a wider audience. I can't even accuse it of being tl;dr, once you got over the fact that they were late it just got more shocking and engrossing.
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