Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Finsbury Park 5 a side plans dropped
Very strange striptease style of consultation results communication, but it appears that the results are out and the plans have been dropped.
Thanks to Phil M for the update. He appears to be the first person outside the Council to get the news!
Thanks to Phil M for the update. He appears to be the first person outside the Council to get the news!
Tags for Forum Posts: finsbury, finsbury park 5 a side, parks
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Liz on
-
Turning an existing building into a venue would be fine! Give us back the Wood Green Empire!
The RoundHouse is an old railway shed; the Dome? well...but the commercialisation of public parkland, 'fraid not.
-
Permalink Reply by Birdy_Too on
-
Dear oh dear Liz, you need to stop dissecting my posts and burn some time on a free sport facility of your choice (as long as it's not football), they are no where near as deep as you are making them, but I wouldn't expect anything less.
I bow down to your superior knowledge of football, clubs, fans organisations, trends, initiatives and the social impact it has on our lives.
No prejudices against tennis or people who participate, why should I? in fact just want the same facilities as tennis, baseball and basket ball players in FP, shame on me for encouraging free sporting facilities.
-
-
Well then, Birdy, the way forward is to lobby for those facilities by joining the Friends of FP Group or forming some form of action group and maybe putting forward a proposal that would not involve commercial exploitation of public land for private gain but allow some football facilities in the park.
That is the kernal of my argument, which you are failing to address even to refute ("I bow down to your superior knowledge of football, clubs, fans organisations, trends, initiatives and the social impact it has on our lives"- really? ).
If a need is perceived, then a case must be made and shown how it can be done. Tennis facilities were improved, I think, because a pot of money was given to Haringey to do so, for example. Where would the money come from to provide free facilities (or low cost maybe)? How would it be run? If it was an open multi-use area, would you be able to book for tournaments? Who, if anyone, would run teams? Would there be enough people to run youth/girls teams? Could this become a grassroots football hub in a similar vein to the proposal made by TFP for cycling?
THESE are the important issues. This is what interests me.
If you are to get people to choose the football intiative over say giving over some of the land to growing or a cycling hub (two alternative proposals) or indeed leaving it as it is - a successful multi-use space that requires no management- then people must see that it is a fair and equitable use of their land.
I'm afraid, whether we like it or not the days of councils spending freely are over and as money gets tighter, we are all going to be fighting our corner for what we believe is important. Leisure services are soft targets and easy to open up to commercial devevlopers. If that is to happen, it should be on our terms. People saying "We need..." will not be enough anymore.
-
-
Actually, I know that private companies do run things in parks, cafes being a prime example but they are usually taking on existing facilities or creating something that has been requested by the public. Often, they are run as co-ops or NFP concerns but even if they aren't, they are providing a service to ALL users and not just a specific demographic. That's the point.
Take my previous example of allowing a company to set up a private playspace (like Clown Town etc) in a park. That would be unfair and misuse of public land, especially if they wanted to add a car park to it. Public Space needs to be just that, and if a private company wants to run it they must not restrict access based on an ability to pay or because you fall within some undesirable category.
I recommend Anna Minton's, Ground Control, and the work of Jane Jacobs to see where 'I'm coming from'. There's also been some interesting work done on the ethnography of parks in the States, in particular the work of Setha Low is of interest
-
Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
-
-
-
Liz, can you suggest a starting place for Setha Low's work on Parks?
You may have spotted her three interesting videos on YouTube about gated communities in the U.S. The first here.
-
-
The paper I have read is depth in Social Sustainability: People, history and values ( I have a copy if you can't find it on the Internet) which discusses disruptions to a local community's sense of place attachment in the context of historic preservation. Case studies include the Parks near Ellis Island.
One point I thnk is important in the FP context is that parks are often quite delicate cultural ecosystems. Where redesign or disruption occurs, often to remove 'an undesirable element' or add something that is attractive to non-local users like tourists, the ecosystem collapses and the place becomes an undesirable space, a case cited in the paper is Parque Central in Costa Rica. It is in a similar vein to Jane Jacobs observations about why some parks are successful (lots of diverse users at all times) and some fail (attractive to one type of user at a specific time and empty the rest, creating space for undesirable behaviour).
Finsbury Park does well for fostering diverse usage, the tarmac area and the cafe area both foster local community life and activity, but Low also argues for designated space that will attract culturally diverse users. Thus, the problem with the 5 a side proposal was that it threatened to take over a community space and disrupt the cultural ecosystem.
However, if a football facility would bring in users to the park who would normally avoid it, then Low would argue, I think, it would be an acceptable use of park space, but it would need to be open to all, free or low cost and should not displace or disrupt established patterns of community activity but enhance it by bringing in new, previously excluded users and bringing footfall to underused space.
Oddly enough, despite its chaotic nature, the consultation did tick one or two of the boxes for a Rapid Ethnographic Assessment Procedure such as impromptu interview (the youtube stuff) and individual interviews (if you take that to mean inviting comments and emails) and possibly finding out about legislation around floodlighting, wildlife etc could also count but that is only 2 (or maybe 3) out of 10 things that should be done to ascertain whether a major change to a site will be successful.
(I also googled Rapid Ethnographic Assessment Procedures and found some Low stuff.)
-
-
Thanks, Anne. Have you read it? And, if so, any comments?
-
-
-
I don't think I'm failing to address anything Liz and have put my argument forward in the simplest of terms, football should be an equal in terms of facilities, it doesn't seem so at present, especially in FP. You have many sports officially catered for there, football isn't. Maybe there isn't the people representing football at friends group level, I don't know?
I am involved in many fan initiatives (anti racism/homophobia, fans trusts, exiled groups etc) and have been for many years. I have been watching live football for over 33 years, mainly at lower league level. I have watched live football in fourteen different countries and visited over two hundred clubs, stadiums and grounds globally. I am a season ticket holder and shareholder in Port Vale and do not classify myself as a glory hunter, even though we are top of L2. I see how many football fans are treated by authorities and the educated elite who often peer down their noses at football fans (many on here as well) and those who want to take commercial advantage of fans, so forgive me for not wanting to take advice from you, someone who listened to Ipswich Town scores come in via Grandstand. I witnessed (live I may add!) the mighty team of the early eighties get knocked out of the FA cup by Shrewsbury Town in 1982, I was there at Gay Meadow, even made it on Match of the Day – I digress.
Were you aware of the free tennis lessons for youngsters in the summer holidays locally, ironically supported by THFC that I helped to promote and advertise? Hardly the actions of a man who held prejudices against tennis playing community, but I wouldn't want to cloud your judgement of me?
The weird thing is I think that we would both welcome improved recreational facilities in all of Haringey's green spaces, be it children' play grounds, tennis courts, football pitches, outside gyms etc etc.
This has already taken up too much needless time, I have to work.
-
Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
-
The playing fields of Eton ... I think its sad and debilitating that social economic status is brought into this discussion. I'm just an immigrant to these isles but even after a number of years, I still find it baffling and I think also, would be to citizens of many nations.
I'm likely to get a beating from Hugh for raising the ugly spectre of politics again, but I have to say that I remember in some parts of the country, on some councils a while ago, there was a policy of selling off playing fields at schools. They were said to promote competition between pupils.
I have always thought that was a most deeply wretched policy.
-
Permalink Reply by Hugh on
-
[No Clive, you won't get any beating from me for raising politics as long as you're not being party political. Au contraire, you're to be congratulated for making a posting in which you neither relate the issue to the fate of Alexandra Palace nor berate the Council.]
-
Permalink Reply by Churros on
-
Well I think its disappointing. The space is underused and if private finance can be levered in to improve local facilities and make more use of the park then in principle I'm in favour. Its not as if there's going to be any public money for new facilities (or for maintaining what we have) for quite a few years.
I'm also amazed that the results indicate that nearly half the respondents use the area the development was going to occupy. I's marginal space. And I guess it will stay that way.
- ‹ Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
- Next ›
© 2024 Created by Hugh.
Powered by
