Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Council Change Policy on Exchanging Out of Date Visitors Parking Permits
Until quite recently, the Council would exchange any unused visitors parking permits that had passed the latest date printed on them at the time of issue. They never made it easy, but it used at least to be possible.
When I called the Council recently to arrange an exchange, I was informed that this policy has recently changed and that they no longer exchange out of date but unused permits. This isn't a life-changing issue, but it is annoying and rather dishonest. At the time I bought my last batch of permits, it was still a bit of pain to get them. So I bought a bundle. I noticed that the vouchers only had three (out of a possible five) years of validity remaining. However, I was assured by the Council at the time that they could be exchanged if I held them past their use-by date. That promise has now apparently been withdrawn.
I hold about £10 of expired tickets. So, as I said, it's not a big deal, but I feel a somewhat aggrieved about it.
I've looked at the Council's page on visitors' parking permits. It says nothing about permits expiring and includes only the following.
By avoiding the opportunity of clearly stating that the permits cannot be exchanged, the suggestion is, if anything, that exchange can be arranged by email. Certainly here's no hint of absolute expiry.
I wrote to the address provided on 30th May. I got a pro forma reply which incuded the following:
The Traffic Management Team aim to respond to e-mails regarding permits, visitor vouchers, ID numbers and queries within five working days. Occasionally, due to high volumes of purchases there will be periods that the process time may take longer.
We are now 15 days after my email with no sign of a reply. It's tempting just to sigh and move on as I'm doing on an increasing number of occasions with the Council these days. But I started wondering if anyone else might be affected, either knowingly or unknowingly.
The policy on this issue clearly varies between Councils.
Camden visitors permits have no exipry date.
The most up-to-date information I have shows this is also true for Hackney, Islington, Enfield, Waltham Forest, Barnet, Barking & Dagneham, Lambeth, Redbridge and Richmond amongst others.
Brent do theirs online so the issue of expiry doesn't arise.
The Ealing website has the following:
Any visitor voucher displaying an expired year can still be used. When displaying a voucher with an expired year, please do not scratch the year or write the year on the voucher.
visitor permits do not have an expiry date
Resident visitor parking permits are non-refundable. You must use your visitor parking permits before they expire (the years they are valid are shown on the permits). We will not replace any permits that are out of date.
Evidently, councils have a free choice on this matter. For those councils that chose to issue permits with years, Newham's approach is harsh but at least it is transparent. Ealing and Merton seem like the fair option to me. Haringey is not fair, neither does it offer transparency. It has apparently adopted a Newham position but declines to make that transparent.
So three questions:
1. Why does Haringey feel the need to set expiry dates on our permits when so many councils don't, including ALL of our neighbouring councils?
2. If there is a reason for setting an expiry date, why did they decide not to change the policy on exchanging expired ones?
3. If they do have an expiry date with a no-exchange policy, why don't they make that clear so we can make informed decisions at the time of purchase?
So I thought I'd see if I could find out any more on the issue. Mr Google drew a blank, so as my next step I've just sent the following Freedom of Information request request through website www.whatdotheyknow.com (sadly this was written when I was only half-way through digging around about this issue. Still, I'll let this one ride and follow-up with more questions if necessary).
Dear Haringey Borough Council,
Please send me details of any policy which concerns:
1. the ability of residents to return out of date visitor's parking permits and exchange them for valid permits. According to your officers, the policy on this matter has recently changed. Please inform me of the date of the change, the date from which the change was operative and provide me with the papers showing who authorised the change and explaining why the change was made.
2. the Council's approach to the length of validity of parking vouchers at the time of issue. The current design means that vouchers are valid for a maximum of five years. Does your policy stipulate how many years validity there must be on a visitor's parking permit when it is sold to a resident.
Please also let me know the legal instruments on which your decisions relating to this matter are made. Please specify the particular clause within those instruments which you use as a basis for making your decision to refuse to exchange out of date permits.
Yours faithfully,
Hugh Flouch
The enquiry is online on the website here.
Tags for Forum Posts: parking, parking permits, visitor parking permits, visitor parking permits expiry
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Don on
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I had this problem a few years ago when a batch of permits I'd ordered online only had two years' validity left when they arrived. Because I'd only just received them, when I complained the permit office did exchange them for a new set with a five-year life, although not without problems (such as having to wait weeks for the new ones to be printed and the Council then sending them to me without paying the postage), but I realise that's not the same as permits expiring when you've already had them for longer. I don't know if you can still reject permits with a short use-by date if you order them online, but it might be worth a try. (In those days, I was also able to deal directly with the permit office, but of course now everything has to go through the wretched call centre, which knows nothing, so there's no chance of getting a sympathetic person who's actually in a position to mitigate this kind of problem.)
Meanwhile, good luck, Hugh, with your FoI request.
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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I've had a reply to my FOI request on What do they Know. It is as follows:
Dear Mr Flouch,
Re: Freedom of Information Act Request ref: LBH/6352417
Thank you for your request for information received on 15 June 2017, in which you asked for the following information:
Please send me details of any policy which concerns:
1. the ability of residents to return out of date visitor's parking permits and exchange them for valid permits. According to your officers, the policy on this matter has recently changed. Please inform me of the date of the change, the date from which the change was operative and provide me with the papers showing who authorised the change and explaining why the change was made.
2. the Council's approach to the length of validity of parking vouchers at the time of issue. The current design means that vouchers are valid for a maximum of five years. Does your policy stipulate how many years validity there must be on a visitor's parking permit when it is sold to a resident.
Please also let me know the legal instruments on which your decisions relating to this matter are made. Please specify the particular clause within those instruments which you use as a basis for making your decision to refuse to exchange out of date permits.
My response is as follows:
1. There has been no change on the policy per se, the Council’s policy and legal position is as set out in the Traffic Management Orders. Residents may ask for refund of expired Visitors Permits (VP), but there is no requirement to exchange them.
2. The length of validity is displayed on the permits as control mechanism in case that the Council needs to implement new restraint measures or change parking permit policy. There is no stipulation on the length of time that a VP can be valid for. The Traffic Management Orders set out the legal requirements. I attach the order relevant to your Controlled Parking Zone.
If you are unhappy with how we have responded to your request you can ask us to conduct an Internal Review. If so, please contact the Feedback and Information Team as below. (Please note you should do this within two months of receiving this response.)
Feedback and Information Governance Team
River Park House
225 High Road
N22 8HQ
E [1][email address]
Yours sincerely,
Giovanna Louca
Information and Governance Officer
Alexandra House,
10, Station Road,
Wood Green,
London N22 7TR
0208 489 2869
I've replied with the following request for clarification:
Dear Louca Giovanna,
Thank you for your reply.
In the reply you state the following:
"Residents may ask for refund of expired Visitors Permits (VP), but there is no requirement to exchange them."
However, in Paragraph 28 of the The Traffic Management Orders which you attached to your reply, the following statement is made:
"A visitors’ permit holder shall be entitled to a refund of the charge made for any residents’ visitors’ permit that is surrendered to the Council or authorised agent subject to the residents’ visitors’ permit not having the time, date, month or year on its face revealed."
The TMO suggests to me that there is an entitlement to a refund for any permit that I surrender to you. Please confirm the situation in this regard and explain the procedure for surrender and payment.
Yours sincerely,
Hugh
"Paragraph 26" should read "Paragraph 28".
I have also sent the following email to the email address given in my original post.
I have a number of expired visitors parking permits that have not been used.
Ideally I would like to exchange them for valid permits. In the event that you decide that you will not do this then I would like a refund in accordance with Paragraph 28 of London Borough Of Haringey Traffic Management Order 2007 No. 61.
Please advise the process for exchanging the vouchers for valid ones or returning them for a refund, as appropriate.
With thanks
- Attachments:
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2007 No 61.pdf, 331 KB
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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on
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Well spotted a Hugh. There is a bit of forked tongue speaking here. The reply to you says that residents "may ask" for a refund (I.e. The refund is discretionary) while the traffic management order says that the permit holder is "entitled to a refund" with no mention of an expiry date or implication of any discretion. Think you've got them bang to rights there.
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The FOI reply might charitably be described as forked tongue speaking but the original information I was given on the phone was heap big wrong. One could assume that the staff member just got it wrong, but the assurance with which they gave the answer suggests to me that there's a general policy to give out this information.
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Permalink Reply by Justin Guest on
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So why is there a "Refund & Exchange" section on the Haringey web site???
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Justin - It's not really a service, just a link to an e-mail address, which makes no promises or commitments!
Funnily enough, the LBH officer who responded to Hugh's FoI request is the one who did exchange vouchers for me (see my earlier post) and seemed sympathetic at the time. Presumably she's moved on from parking control, given her current job title, but perhaps there's some hope yet.
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Permalink Reply by Olly on
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It looks as if they are planning to overhaul the resident and visitor permits with one change being visitor permits only being valid in the year purchased (see section 6.3):
https://www.minutes.haringey.gov.uk/documents/g8424/Public%20report...
Also getting rid of weekend, 2 week and 2 hours permits and more than doubling hourly permit costs although offsetting this with the kind removal of the upper limit on amount of permits that can be purchased (not that anyone in their right mind would purchase more that 480 1 hour permits if the only last for a maximum of 12 months).
Looks to be going to consultation next but this looks to fall under the same banner as the push for additional funds like the green waste collection changes.
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Thanks Olly. From a very quick look it seems that they'll be more than doubling VP charges. Do I have that right?
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Yes and increase from 35p to 80p for the 1 hour permits. Ouch!
Resident permits show a sizeable increase across the board as well. Only sub 120g/km vehicles showing a reduction.
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Dear Flouch Hugh,
I have thoroughly enjoyed our little FOI game of cat and mouse. This is how I manage to put in my boring existence at Alexandra House, maybe until end of March 2019. But why did you upend me and turn me on my head as Louca Giovanna? Not very dignified!
Yours sincerely,
Giovanna Louca
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Here's the reply to my follow-up question about refunds:
Dear Mr Flouch,
Thank you for your email.
In answer to your question, residents may ask for refund of expired Visitors Permits and are entitled to a refund of the charge made at the time the permits were originally ordered. Should you wish to surrender the expired permits for a refund of the charge made, please send them for the attention of myself at the address noted in my signature below.
Kind Regards
Giovanna Louca
Information and Governance OfficerAlexandra House,
10, Station Road,
Wood Green,
London N22 7TR0208 489 2869
[email address]
www.haringey.gov.uk
twitter@haringeycouncil
facebook.com/haringeycouncilThe fact that I'm asked to return them to a member of the FOI team, does make me wonder if giving a refund is an exceptional circumstance. Given what the staff are told the tell the public, it wouldn't surprise me.
By way of a postscript, I was down in Brighton at the weekend and learned that the council there is soon to introduce the purchase of visitor permits in the same way as most of us pay for on street parking now - by way of an app. Can we hope that Haringey will introduce such a system before too long and let us all move on from the current system which has been too broke for too long.
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