Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Consultation Documents Issued for Harringay's High Street
Further to my post last week, Haringey Council have today started a consultation for the Trader and GLA led project to spruce up Harringay's stretch of Green Lanes.
A copy of a six-page fold out document detailing the options for consultation is being posted through the letter boxes of Harringay residents today.
If you're a home and you've seen it, what do you think? Do you like the lights on top of the Salisbury?
Link: Online Consultation
Tags for Forum Posts: harringay regeneration 2012-13, high street parking, high streets, outer london fund
- Attachments:
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Elan on
-
This looks great. I really do hope that the removal of the bus lanes, as Rob said, will not have a negative effect on traffic flow because it would be so nice to see the pavements widen with outdoor seating and the provision for temporary street markets.
"New copy of the Salisbury’s neo-classical columns" aka the Totem Pole: I'm not sure if this is necessary. I am in favour of mature trees and improved lighting because that will undoubtedly make a big imrovement to the feel of the area day and night.
-
Permalink Reply by Matt Hewitt on
-
They're having a laugh with the bus lane removal idea. Seems to be an example of a weird kind of double-think. It's presented as a proposal to widen pavements, but it's actually a back-door way to enable plenty of car parking on the pavement, on the site of the former (albeit part-time) bus lanes.
The benefits of this proposal would include;
Potential cycling benefits - further space for cycle parking, and improvements to road layoutHow does removing the bus lanes, the only slight area of refuge for bicycle users, and narrowing the road so that bicycles are forced into conflict with motor traffic, constitute a benefit? Cycles will struggle to squeeze past queueing motor traffic, nullifying one of the benefits of cycling - saving time. This proposal just doesn't correlate with the Haringey 40:20 let's-Go-Dutch-and-improve-cycling project at all.
Footway widening can incorporate parking bays
Not much of a footway widening then. Not sure how you can walk in the same area a car is parked, however pretty the paving slabs on the pavement beneath.
Improved economy through the increased health benefits via encouragement of sustainable modes of transport
Buses are a more sustainable means of transport than the car. Shame we're going to discourage the use of buses by having them caught up in the private car traffic because there are no longer any bus lanes.
Yes, we need some car parking, for bulky goods, big shops and for use by people with disabilities.
But the majority of trips to local centres, to the surprise of some shopkeepers, are by people on foot who live nearby. A study found that it's the case in Bristol, and if someone can do a study in Harringay, it's likely to be shown to be the case here too. Let's use this space to benefit walking and cycling please, and not just pay lip service to it.
-
Permalink Reply by Kit on
-
Yes, I'm with MattH on this one. The bus lanes offer cyclists a degree of safety in heavy traffic. Encouraging more cars to park in front of the shops -- is that seriously what's planned? -- presents a new risk of drivers opening their doors and bashing on-coming bikes. There's a real risk that the new TK Maxx will bring more car traffic to our neighbourhood. Also, none of the mock-ups seem to feature well-lit bike parking areas. Could car parking not be restricted to disabled only/offpeak commercial deliveries, plus bus lane retained?
Are there any plans within this revamp/budget allocation to look at traffic calming on Alroy/Wightman?
Other than that, especially liked the mock-up for the new-look railway bridge. Greenery! No hideous corporate-sponsored banner!!! Fabulous.
-
Permalink Reply by shilps2 on
-
I'm with Matt H too. Where is the vision in this proposal re cars/cycling/walking/bus transport?! Haringey is currently signing off on ambitious carbon reduction targets - yet this plan seems to be pandering to car users' need to park on the doorstep of their destination at the expense of cyclists, pedestrians and bus users. I would have expected this kind of proposal a couple of decades ago - but not in the 21st century.
Carbon targets aside, this proposal seems completely against any kind of day to day common sense.
I'm a cyclist and go up and down a section of Green lanes every day. It's already really difficult - there isn't much room at all for cyclists, especially going north. The bus lane is really useful for me coming south. for those of you who say getting rid of the bus lane will be better for cyclists - i totally disagree with this based on my experience. There is no plan for cycle lanes on the main road.
I also use the bus quite often in the mornings. The bus lane is a godsend - I wouldn't use the bus without it, it's not worth it. I'm surprised TFL have gone ahead with this idea- it will mess up their bus timetables for the 141, 29, 341 etc.
This idea doesn't seem to improve the pedestrian experience either, unless I'm missing something?
IS THE CAR USER LOBBY REALLY THAT STRONG AROUND HERE??!
Someone said that we'd just be giving Green Lanes the Wood Green treatment, where the road is narrower. Traffic in Wood Green is terrible and cycling is even more dangerous than on Green Lanes.
I was so excited to get the documents through the door. The sprucing up stuff re shop fronts and bridge is nice enough and I appreciate the hard work which has gone into the plan. but the road narrowing and prioritising car parking above everything else just seems a big step backward - this change would overshadow to good stuff in my opinion.
i hope we can challenge these parts of this proposal - seems from this thread there is a strong groundswell of feeling.
-
-
I agree that the bus lane is useful, for bikes and obviously buses, when it's operational. As shilps says, the contrast for cyclists when it's not operational and when going north is noticeable. My only point is that that's most of the time, so the bus lane as it stands is a pretty imperfect solution.
Looking at the proposal, the illustrations seem to suggest a reduction, not an increase in parking. Right now, cars are parked all along the bus lane on the southbound side of the road, but in the drawings no parking is illustrated on that side. It seems to suggest that the ex-bus lane is given over completely to pedestrians, with no parking, whether at pavement level or not. But is that really what will happen in practice?
If you step out onto the street right now you can see that the gap between the parked cars in the bus lane and the main carriageway is easily wide enough for a cycle path. I know it's not in the plans but if cycle lanes could be added the wouldn't we have a better solution for cyclists than the current arrangement of occasional use of a bus lane in one direction? Can anyone suggest why cycle lanes couldn't be added? We've got even more room to play with if the drawings are honest and there genuinely won't be any southbound parking.
Of course, we'd still have an issue for southbound morning bus commuters. But we would have wider pavements for pedestrians and I genuinely think that would improve the feel of the area.
-
-
Hang on, I see I'm wrong and the more detailed drawings in the larger PDF (i.e. the one that wasn't delivered through our doors) suggest there will be southbound parking, though not necessarily any more than already exists. I'd agree to getting rid of it if we could. I'm generally in agreement that the significance of vehicle traffic to local businesses is overstated. I think someone mentioned on another thread that a lot of the restaurant custom isn't local. That's as may be, but in the last decade I've been to restaurants all over London and never driven to a single one of them. You don't need a car to get here. I don't have a car and I'm here every day!
-
-
With regards to MattH's last point. Not specific to Harringay, but London Councils recently published a report on the relevance of parking to the success of urban centres. One of the case studies, although not named, is clearly just up the road at Wood Green shopping centre. They surveyed shoppers and found that (despite an enormous amount of very cheap car parking) only 17% of shoppers arrive by car: http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/policylobbying/transport/parkingin...
Other conclusions in the report are that: More car parking does not necessarily mean greater commercial success; shopkeepers consistently overestimate the share of their customers coming by car, and that; walkers and bus users spend more per month than car drivers.
Meanwhile, the most populous city in the most car dependent nation on earth has massively increased retail sales (up to 49%) in some areas by... Installing protected bike paths: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/2012-10-measuring-the-str...
-
-
While I'm not completely convinced either way on this point, please can everyone bear in mind the point made by Rob already - at present there isn't a bus lane on Green Lanes 85% of the time. Instead there's a series of parking places separated by unused road space. Removing the bus lane during these times: 1) wouldn't have any effect on the traffic, since neither buses or cars can use the lane when it's blocked by parking; 2) would provide more pedestrian space in currently wasted areas of the road; and 3) have a marginally beneificial effect on cycle safety, since cyclists diving in and out of the bus lane between the parked cars is more dangerous than simply adopting their position in the main carriageway.
Maybe some would like a bus lane full time (i.e. never any parking on Green Lanes at all - no doubt the traders would object to that), but don't imagine that's what we've already got!
-
Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
-
The bus lane is there when it's needed and that is 60% of possible commuting time. How on earth can you justify using the 15% figure?
Rob you are committing a Mayor like sin with your statistic. Please rethink.
-
-
I don't think you can equate the hours when the bus lane is in force to usage, unless you are suggesting there is as much traffic at 3am as 8am?
The overwhelming comment from cyclists I've discussed this with is that it looks like the plan is to copy Wood Green. Unfortunately that's a nightmare to cycle in.
Without any evidence to back these proposals up (studies on modal share of transport at various times, etc) I just can't see how it will work. It's noticeable in the mornings how much everything slows down when there's a van in the bus lane. If this is what is being proposed permanently it just seems unrealistic.
I also can't work out what will happen at the junction of St. Ann's Road. The plan seems to have a single width road northbound, is everyone going to be queueing behind a 341?
© 2024 Created by Hugh.
Powered by
