Harringay online

Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!

Camden has now joined Hackney & Islington in deciding to consult on a 20 mph limit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20617833

"Areas of central and north London are a step closer to having a 20mph speed limit imposed after councillors agreed a motion to improve road safety.

Camden Council said it would now go ahead with a public consultation.

It wants to introduce the speed limit to all roads under its control to reduce the number of accidents and encourage more people to walk or cycle."

Now, how about Haringey?

Tags for Forum Posts: 20mph, cycling, traffic, walking

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20 mph on main roads is neither sensible nor viable. It slows buses and is unrealistic on main roads.  Those who promote this either don't drive, or choose not to use a car.  Side roads, or at approaches to schools, busy shopping streets, yes, but blanket 20 limits, no. 

Haringey should NOT follow ill advised Islington on this. 

They actually have a lot of evidence that it is sensible and viable. Fuel economy is much better down there too, I have a car with a magic computer that tells me that. The chances of killing a pedestrian when you hit them at a slower speed are significantly reduced too. You single out "busy shopping streets" as exclusively deserving of this treatment but before children were bullied off of residential streets by the first selfish motorists they owned them, by right of possession, we have lots of historical photographs of the area that attest to that. Don't you think it would be a good thing if they felt a bit more comfortable about crossing the street that they live in to get to the other side without reasonable fear of being mown down by some loon using their street as a short-cut?

re loons, short-cuts and mowing down, I understood RicP's comments to actually concern main roads as opposed to side streets. Whilst I can accept a 20 mph limit in side roads as sensible, I am in agreement with RicP's criticism of the apparent drive to turn London wholesale into a 20mph zone. Regarding fuel economy, efficiency at 20mph  depends on what sort of vehicle you have, and its associated gear ratios etc.  E.g. at 20 mph, my own is either at the top end of 2nd gear or at the bottom end of 3rd - neither of which is as fuel efficient as 30 mph in 3rd. The blanket 20mph limit seems to me to be an emotional rather than rational approach to road safety. There is no sensible way to make the world completely risk-free. As such, surely we have to accept that the roads are there to support motorised transport, as opposed to being risky tarmaced playgrounds?  Pedestrians surely also need to take some responsibility for their own road safety, with mantras such as 'look left, look right, look left again' embedded in behaviour when crossing any road, and  'follow the green cross code' encouraging use of zebra crossings when crossing main roads.

You are completely wrong about the fuel economy of your vehicle in 2nd/3rd. What you are talking about is the amount of power required to accelerate at those speeds and when the "limit" is 20mph there should be much less of that going on.

Pedestrians were on the road FIRST. Same as native peoples around the world. They had more right to it but were bullied off. Please have a good look at the photographs on our website, a think about what children are now allowed to do with their time and some thought for our cousins across the North Sea who surpassed these attitudes 40 years ago, in part because they had no domestic motor industry to support.

John, sorry but I am not wrong about fuel economy. My car has a meter which displays rate of fuel consumption and it is higher at the top end of second at 20 mph than when in 3rd at 30 mph. On your second point, I'm not sure who you mean in terms of cousins across the North Sea, but you seem to be suggesting that London streets should be car free + available for kids to use as a playground ? Not a realistic approach in my view.

There is also evidence to the contrary as a study in Portsmouth established.  Sensible use of 20 limits is more appropriate than blanket coverage, as so many drivers ignore 20 limits on roads where 25-30 is more appropriate. 

Seriously how many parents allow their kids to play in the street these days.  Not a lot? 

Sorry John but if you want to control speeds then signs with a number 20 on them won't do it.  Bus routes need to be unrestricted so they can travel legally at a safe speed, which is rarely 30 but easily 25 mph.

Couple of things.  You seem to be arguing that because drivers will break the law there is no point in having it which I find a bit odd.  Secondly you ask if parents let their kids play on the streets these days - well the answer is no and one (granted not the only) of the reasons in the fear of traffic.  Bit cause and effect?

I take your point regarding safety in residential side roads and agree that a 20mph is reasonable. However, the logic does not extend to main roads. Surely no parent anywhere would allow their children to play on a busy main road, regardless of whether it is 20 or 30mph limit ?

 

 

No, but crossing it will be that wee bit safer.

Yeah, agreed. Average speed for cars in London now is around 11mph I gather. 20mph or even 15mph would allow cars to increase their average speed and eliminate the ridiculous stop-start (which in effect is massive braking-massive acceleration) that driving in London encourages. I'd vote for a blanket 15mph limit between 6am and 11pm inside the north and south circulars. I drive enough to be informed on this issue, I would like to think, but I am also a cyclist, pedestrian and bus user - something's got to give. Any change like this needs to be stick (to get people out of cars) as much as carrot. Just saying nice things about considerate driving and how green cycling is has been a damp squib.

There is a bit on the Living Streetssite about a blanket 20 mph speed limit that people might find useful in this debate.

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