Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Is Harringay in Tottenham?
The latest edition of the free paper "First Tottenham" has just been delivered. The first article on the front page reads:
Do you live in Tottenham?
When we delivered our preview edition at the beginning of last December, we had a few telephone calls from people who could not understand why they were receiving a Tottenham paper, because they thought they lived somewhere else - Hornsey, Wood Green or even Hackney..."
They provide a map of Tottenham (on p.7) which they show as reaching as far west as Wightman Road and the New River.
Are Harringay and Hornsey part of Tottenham?
Do you live in Tottenham?
When we delivered our preview edition at the beginning of last December, we had a few telephone calls from people who could not understand why they were receiving a Tottenham paper, because they thought they lived somewhere else - Hornsey, Wood Green or even Hackney..."
They provide a map of Tottenham (on p.7) which they show as reaching as far west as Wightman Road and the New River.
Are Harringay and Hornsey part of Tottenham?
Tags for Forum Posts: Harringay boundaries, harringay name
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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I can imagine where this came from, but it's historical and even then only partly right. The Municipal Borough of Tottenham, and before that the Manor of Tottenham came as far east as parts of Harringay. In Harringay the boundary with Hornsey snaked along the southern part of the ladder including betweend tens and around 100 metres of the eastern end of the ladder. Below is a picture showing the old boundaries of the former boroughs of Hornsey, Haringey & Wood Green. You'll see whilst all of Harringay east of Green Lanes was in the Borough of Tottenham, only a small part of the Ladder was.
But even then, that's only half the picture as far as I'm concerened. From the late 19th century Harringay was established as a clearly defined urban area and the people who lived here were clear that they lived in Harringay. Many in the west may have also identified themselves as living in the Borough of Hornsey and ditto to the east for Tottenham. But there was a real pride in the fact that they lived in Harringay first. The comparison today might be that peole in Highgate are clear that they live in Highgate not Haringey or Hampstead not Camden. (Don't think this means I harbour any pretensions; the comparison is made purely for the sake of this discussion!)
Are we in Tottenham now? Well, I've never thought of it that way. For my money, today Tottenham proper is the area around Tottenham High Road. Modern mapmakers confuse the issue by putting South Tottenham in various places, but most of those places go by other names, some almost as old as Tottenham itself, like West Green (which 200 years ago was bigger than Wood Green).
If you want to know more about our local history, look at my well-researched by mediocrely written Wikipedia articles or visit the Hornsey Historical Society or Bruce Castle.
If the article claims Hornsey is or ever was part of Tottenham, it's complete tosh.
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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on
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Before 1965, 75% of what we know as Harringay lay within the Tottenham Borough Council boundaries. According to "Harringay" on Wikipedia it is still possible to detect the boundary by the different types of pavement on the ladder streets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MBH_-_MBT_Boundary_Marker.jpg
Tottenham & Hornsey were still part of Middlesex and schools in the area were controlled by the Middlesex County Council as opposed to the LCC in the Inner London Area, what later became the ILEA.
Most Children in Harringay (like me) went to Tottenham Schools: Woodlands Park now Chestnuts. The primary school for kids who resided in Hornsey was Mattison Road School.
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In my mind I'd given you at least five minutes to enter this one Steve. But, wow were you quick off the mark!
I'm not sure where you get the 75% from. If you look at the maps above, and take what I believe is an understanding between us of the boundaries of Harrringay, isn't it more like 40 - 50%? (For those members not rehearsed in the boundary issue, see the paragraph top centre on the main page which has a link to a Google Map showing my understanding of Harringay boundaries - dispute it if you will - that's an invitation, not a challenge).
As to whether "Most Children in Harringay........went to Tottenham Schools", I guess that's linked to the question I raise in the preceding para.
(Another note for readers: Steve is a loyal Harringaeite who was born and bred in the Gardens and now lives in chic Berlin. I met Steve virtually over the rewriting of the Wikipedia article on Harringay and he was an immensely supportive first wave member of this site who steadied my nerve as I doubted the whole project. He has his own blog website, the address of which I hope he'll take this opportunity to share with you).
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Oh by the way, some things never change:
The Hornsey residents always considered themselves "superior" to those who lived within Tottenham. Although these days it has more to do with "Property Prices" (God forbid that we are labelled "Tottenham people, the house will loose value") than actually differences between the Working and Lower Middle Classes.
That's one of the reasons I left England with it's devisive and outdated class system.. and don't tell me it doesn't exist anymore! Everyone is labelled from the day they born, by the way they speak.. education.. everything. Oh dear, it sounds like I have a chip on my shoulder.. No I don't.. But I do find it amusing, observing the class system in action in 2007!
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That's an interesting issue you raise Steve. I think it would be wrong to claim that there isn't this apparent or real historical difference bewteen the two sides. But I think it's probably much less of an issue than it was.
Personally, I'm now very keen that all parts of Harringay identify as a single community and put and increasingly irrelevant differences behind them. But thanks for raising the issue. It's an easy one to dodge and worth airing and I hope reaching a positive conclusion on.
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Permalink Reply by matt on
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> I'm now very keen that all parts of Harringay identify as a single community
Ah ha! :)
The passage way between Alexandra and Burghley Rds still has a Hornsey boundary marker, sitting in the ground half way along said passage. I think there's still one in Falkland Rd too.
The Tottenham MP David Lammy lives in Falkland Rd on the ladder. His constituency comes as far as Wightman Rd. Of course Falkland Rd is an N8 postcode so in that respect it's in Hornsey! So I guess it depends on what classification this freebie newspaper was using. They will of course use the one that gives them the most readership!
I see Harringay as unique, not in Hornsey or in Tottenham or as part of Wood Green. We are an island of unigueness including all sorts of people. The Salisbury Tavern is its beating heart. :)
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I suppose I should have written 75% of the people (and kids) I knew lived in Tottenham.
OK, geographically you're correct Hugh. It's more 50/50 45/55 who knows.. ? BUT that said, the heart of Harringay, the shopping area Green Lanes /Grand Parade all lay within and paid Tottenham rates. (Higher than Hornsey).
There was also a tendency for the Hornsey people to distance themselves from Tottenham by saying that they lived in Hornsey rather than Harringay(=Tottenham) and that is why I think I also remember early 1960s Harringay more as a part of Tottenham than of Hornsey.
By the way, I know it's OT, but Wood Green was also originally part of Tottenham, only splitting off in the late 19th Century. The name was originally Tottenham Wood Green similarly to Tottenham West Green or Tottenham Green itself.
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As a postscript.. on a lighter note.. your map does make the border between Hornsey & Tottenham look harder to cross than the Berlin Wall was.. a real divide ??? I hope not and I hope that these days the term "Harringay" now means both sides.. those in N4, as well as those in N8..
@Hugh: thanks for the plug, but my site is not on form at the moment, as most of the archives are not on line due to me moving my server.... Even so, here is the link: www.isarsteve.de/blog
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Permalink Reply by Liz on
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When we were looking for a house around here, the estate agents made great play of an N8 postcode having greater prestige than an N4. We are on the border here and sometimes it does look like we are 'below the salt'.
Its all nonsense. I back a campaign that defines us as Harringay first. A sense of place might lead to a sense of pride and unite residents. I am sick of people defining themselves by the road the live in, the school their kids attend, the shops they shop in.
"Sigh" 'a working class hero is something to be' but we are all...well you get the picture. I'll put the soapbox away now shall I? Hello Steve h. I do have a chip on my shoulder...it makes my arm ache sometimes:)
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Me?! All of us. Alison has joined the Open Space email group. I'm awaiting yours Liz. :)
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Yes, I suppose Matt that the constituency dimension was one I left out. We are part of the Tottenham constituency - but for me that's something drawn up for the convenience of the electoral commission rather than anything else.
I was lazy with the map Steve. It was one that I had to hand originally for Wikipedia but not used for copyright infringement reasons. I made it to clearly show what areas the three old municipal boroughs covered.
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