Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Crouch End Heights !!!!?????
Estate agents (Prickett & Ellis of Crouch End - where else) have now given the name "Crouch End Heights" to the north (higher) part of Stapleton Hall Road. See the attached. The property in question at 194 is just down the road from Quernmore Road. What next Finsbury Park village?. There was an attempt at Stroud Green Village, but this came to nothing.
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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Hugo, the interest in neighbourhood boundaries and the passion they can arouse is fascinating for me. My guess is that the emotions may come from a quite primal sense of territoriality and get overlaid with more thoughtful notions.
The reason I believe it to be a worthwhile discussion is related to neighbourhood wellbeing. If there is a clear idea of the boundaries of where a neighbourhood is and that is shared with others who live in the same area, a precondition for encouraging a care for that neighbourhood and others who live there has been met. We're all going to put much more effort into something that's 'ours' than we will into something that's 'theirs'.
On the question of whether to call an area a ‘neighbourhood’, a ‘district’ a ‘suburb’, or whatever, for London I tend to go with ‘neighbourhood’. I think I do that because it's more organic than the other options. The alternatives all seem to have administrative roots and are suggestive of lines drawn in the sand. ‘Neighbourhood’ seems more bottom-up and allows for a certain amount of ebb and flow.
That flexibility in neighbourhood definition in London is, I believe critical and I'll come back to it in a minute, but first a word about what I think best underpins the definition of a neighbourhood’s boundaries. Thinking about London, I believe that there are two principal ingredients. The first is historical referencing. It's straightforward enough to draw some lines and invent a neighbourhood, but without roots in history that trace the organic development over time, there's a real gap in any sense of rootedness and belonging that a historically referenced underpinning gives. We all like to trace our family background to get a sense of where we come from; it gives is a sense of belonging, of being rooted. Being able to connect a neighborhood back into history works in the same way.
But history isn't everything. The people who inhabit a space today also have to broadly agree on the boundaries. Mix these two information sources together and balance them as appropriate to the situation and I think you're more likely than not to come up with an enduring idea of a neighbourhood’s geography.
Now back to the issue of neighbourhood shift, ebb and flow or flexibility of neighbourhood boundaries. We're in a living city with a constantly shifting population. In my view it's unrealistic to expect no neighbourhood shift under those circumstances. If you add in to that mix the influences of commercial interest, aspiration and wayfinding, shift becomes almost inevitable.
The influence of people's personal aspirations to live in ‘better’ areas seems to go hand in glove with commercial interest. It apparently happened in Hampstead in the Victorian era. If you know North London. you'll know how huge an area attaches Hampstead to its name. From the original village there grew, South Hampstead, West Hampstead and Hampstead Garden Suburb. Everyone aspired to live in 'Hampstead' and builders and estate agents were happy to help people satisfy those aspirations. This discussion and Huren's (I'm guessing ironic) map shows how the same thing is happening on a smaller scale with Crouch End a hundred years later.
Wayfinding kicks in as an influence because of our top-down system of imposing railway station names. This works hand-in-hand with our city's shifting population. If you arrive in a huge a complex city like London, with very little knowledge of its districts and neighbourhoods, you grasp what's most readily available. Probably first to present itself are the names given to our tube and train stations. This is why you get people talking about neighbourhoods like 'Turnpike Lane', 'Manor House' and even, God forbid 'Harringay Green Lanes'.
Moving on to our local boundaries, and starting closest to home, quite a lot of informal work has gone on with defining Harringay, or should I say redefining it. By about 1910, a pretty clear shared sense of Harringay had developed. That was apparently cemented by the Arena and the Stadium. However, our area's identity seemed to be shaken by the closure of these two Harringay beacons and about a decade later the reorganisation of local Government that saw the birth of Haringey Borough. It seemed that by the end of the century few people were sure if Harringay still existed, let alone knew where its boundaries were. Added to the mix was the naming of the station on our high street. It opened in the late nineteenth century as 'Harringay Park, Green Lanes' and its name has been changed no less than four times over the ensuing 140 years.
When I came to the party, confusion seemed to reign. As I started HoL in 2007, I had a different sense of Harringay's boundaries to the one I have today. My understanding has evolved both through a deepening knowledge of the historical basis and listening to others. From the get-go I wanted HoL to be Harringay-wide, but early on in the website's life I asked if people thought HoL should be Ladder-centric or neighbourhood-wide. That started the first debate about boundaries and it's simmered ever since. In addition to this informal discussion, I also did a street-based survey along Green Lanes. I think what we have now is as broadly a shared notion of the neighbourhood as you’re going to get. The next level would be more formal, but the effort required would probably need to be driven by a need as it has been with the CENF. For my money, I’d be surprised if we came up with anything much different to what’s been developed by local people through HoL.
With regards to the other areas you mention, a few thoughts from me.
1. Stroud Green The nascent Stroud Green Forum has done the legwork on defining Stroud Green. (By the way, historically, what's now Finsbury Park, used to be Stroud Green too. The park and railway station changed all that more than a century and a half ago though).
2. Turnpike Lane I agree with you Hugo. For me it's a street and doesn’t exist as a neighbourhood.
3. Belmont I’ve thought about this too. I wonder if the lack of an identity for this area is one of the things that helps to give “Turnpike Lane’ currency as a neighbourhood. Coming west from Downhills, up to about Belmont Road is unarguably West Green for me. After that, I’m not sure. If you look at Google Maps its called Duckett’s Green. Now that works for me since it has a historical basis both in the actual name, ‘Duckett's’ and in the addition of ‘Green’, since that’s how most of the other settlements along Green Lanes were styled – Wood Green, Bounds Green, Palmers Green etc. What this name currently lacks though is resident consent.
4. Manor House Again, there wasn’t a strong identity or a centre around where the tube stop was sited, so ‘Manor House’ took hold. In my mental map, I now include this as a neighbourhood. I think it has the weight of opinion behind it and a growing population that want to give where they live a name.
5. London Neighbourhoods For me neighbourhoods are not at all confined by any administrative boundaries. For obvious reasons there tends to be a lot of commonality, but beyond that I think neighbourhoods get defined by people who live there and I’m all for that.
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Permalink Reply by Arkady on
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Very good analysis Hugh.
I think that Stroud Green's northern and eastern boundary is pretty well defined with the ridge and the railway, and there is very little overlap with Crouch End. It's the western/southern boundary with Finsbury Park that is more difficult. As you say, Finsbury Park emerged within the historical Stroud Green area, but parts of northern Stroud Green (especially north of the railway track) were never considered to be Finsbury Park.
I get the strong impression that Stroud Green's identity has deepened and broadened in recent years, as the Stroud Green road has become a more flourishing and diverse high street, and people want to dissociate themselves from the relative grimness of Finsbury Park - especially FP proper around the station and Seven Sisters Road.
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Permalink Reply by Huren Marsh on
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It is obvious from the amount of responses to the original message that we humans are a fiercely territorial species. As the opening scene of 2001: A Space Odyssey showed, from the dawn of time we have defined our communal allegiances primarily by the territories we occupy.
I agree with Hugh that 'neighbourhood' is a much more inclusive word that lends itself to collective/collaborative activities/actions. From this perspective I have been obsessively concerned about a neighbourhood issue since 1982 when I did a dissertation for my OU studies on the architecture of Hornsey Town Hall. I became a fan of HTH and have remained so since or at least until it is sold off to some big property developer who will turn it into a gated community for offshore speculators.
Some years later, frustrated by the failure of Haringey Council to show any serious interest in returning the town hall to use as a public space I booked into one of the monthly surgery that the then leader of the council, Charles Adje, held at the Civic Centre as a way of meeting "the people" to discuss their issues. Unfortunately, Charles Adje confirmed what I have always suspected was the Council's attitude to the town hall which was basically that Crouch End was in the middle-class (West) area of the borough and was therefore a less deserving cause for any spending of the Borough’s council tax income. He cited Northumberland as area that had greater needs than the people of Crouch End which again confirmed that the council did not see the restoration of HTH as borough-wide investment for all its citizens.
It was after this encounter with the council leader that the feeling of territoriality raised its ugly head and planted the seed of an East-West division in my mind. I figured that since most of the council tax was being raised in the West of the Borough (bands G & H houses) there was an opportunity to start a campaign for partition of the borough into East and West so that collected council tax could be spent in the respective half of the borough. Fortunately, Green Lanes (A105) provided a natural and geographical boundary line. (see Haringey Partition map). Now, don't get me wrong about harbouring any ill-feeling towards the inhabitants in the East of the borough; some of my best ….etc. Also, I originally lived (South Tottenham), went to school (Downhills Comprehensive) and worked (Bruce Grove) in the East of the borough.
I contacted the council about permission to set up my Partition for Haringey campaign stall outside Budgens on a Saturday and was all prepared to roll out the campaign but in the end decided that running two campaigns was a bit too much admin to undertake. I was also concerned that friends and family in the East of the borough would misread the campaign as a form of apartheid nor could I rule out the possibility of internecine skirmishes breaking out along Green Lanes in Harringey.
N.B. The choice of colours representing the two halves of the borough was randomly chosen from the software palette and does not represent any political significance.
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Haringey Partition.png, 95 KB
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Permalink Reply by Abi on
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I was also concerned that friends and family in the East of the borough would misread the campaign as a form of apartheid
I can't possibly imagine why!
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Dear Abster,
It is impossible to see on-line that tongue was firmly stuck in cheek as I wrote that ...as it was for my definitive Crouch End map previously. Maybe there is an emoticon for that. As a guide, paragraphs 1 to 3 are true.
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Permalink Reply by Richard Woods on
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The moment the new London Borough were formed under the GLC this was the feared outcome. Until then Hornsey was Hornsey with Crouch End at its centre, Honsey Village to the north east, Muswell Hill to the west, Stroud Green to the south east, Harringay to the east and Highgate (Trinity Trees) to the west (sort of). The moment Hornsey, Wood Green and Tottenham were amalgamated everything was bound to change. Harringay is the effective centre of Haringey but the 'powers that be' do not like that and changing the identity of neighbourhoods has become a tool in managing attitudes. Estate agents are the enthusiastic enablers for aspirational change and play the same game for different reasons.
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Good stuff as ever but London is an amalgam of villages (most cities are|) so that starts this whole thing off. When local government re-organises (umpteen times) it all gets a bit muddled. Being born down south (Brixton) I came to N8 courtesy of AH and his bombs. But Frobisher N8 was allegedly Hornsey while down Green Lanes was N4 and Harringay. But then N4 was also Stroud Green.
Back then we considerd we lived in Harringay. Hornsey was from the top of Turnpike Lane (a neighbourhood but never more) to the foot of Musell Hill, and across to Crouch End (part of Hornsey but its own former 'village') to Wood Green (borough) and Ally Pally (neighbourhood). BUT... Hornsey Village was Hornsey High Street (once its own village) with St Mary's, pubs, nick etc. The Railway re-wrote some of this with Harringay West (what!!!?) but Hornsey Station virtually in what we called Harringay (north???).
Worth noting that Harringay House led to Finsbury Park (what?), Hornsey House was in the middle of the ladder (Hugh?) and where Stationer's school was built is alleged to have been the site of Hornsey Manor House (but not perhaps of Manor House).
Life's too short - how's the cricket? What all over already? We won? Different universe....
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Permalink Reply by L F T Snowflake on
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Estate Agents - doncha just luv em?
I grew up in the Harrow Road Ward area of Paddington, which for some strange reason was always known as 'Maida Hill', depite there being no trace of a hill for miles around. If you've ever seen an old film called 'The Blue Lamp' and its TV follow up, Dixon of Dock Green, this was the location for those.
In the mid-80's a new estate agency started branding the area 'Chippenham Village'. I think this was in allusion to the Chippenham Pub, a notoriously grotty large pub at the end of Chippenham Road. It did not last. The agent got ridiculed mercilessly by the locals. Perhaps thats the answer in this case.
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
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Konrad, I agree with you about the points you make about the "box on the roof". A neighbour once aptly described this as shoving a garden shed into a roof.
Good for the Council back then, in trying to resist it. A subsequent Conservative government now appears hell-bent unfortunately, on slackening planning regulation.
CDC
Councillor
Liberal Democrat Party
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Permalink Reply by Isabelle on
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Actually, when I read Crouch End Heights in the title of this post, the top of Stapleton Rd and Mount View Rd were what I visualised as being the highest points of the area!
Otherwise, just saying Crouch End alone is quite vague, it just suggests that one would go shopping to Crouch End... which, in this case, is probably true... as well as all other areas around! If I lived there I'd definitely shop in Stroud Green, as it's nearer and has got the shops and restaurants I'd prefer to go to. Although with a car I'd shop in Crouch End Central, as parking in Stroud Green is difficult and going all the way round to Green Lanes can be busy and is also hard to park...
I get that estate agent tricks to sell property at top price via whatever tales they can make up is annoying! It annoys me too. But they're sales people... we can't change that.
Am not sure that I get what this 'war' about borders definition is about, seems to be the latest trend... Neighbourhoods are fluid I think, they overlap. And fighting for borders recognition isn't helpful to people who live on the edge.
Anyway, I thought I'd give a slightly different view on the topic.
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Thumbs up for overlappig and fluidity.
As to blaming estate agents, see my response to Hugo. I think estate agents are responding to people's aspirations. So who's to 'blame'. For my part, I just accept this facet of neighbourhod branding as part of the human condition and so the ebb and flow of our neighbourhood names.
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