Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
HMO Licensing.
Perhaps some forum members can shed a little light on this for me.
I own a 2 bedroom 1 bathroom flat on the ladder that is currently tenanted. Previously to this I lived there with my wife.
The current tenants have decided to use the living room as a bedroom as the kitchen is quite large. They put the council tax in all 3 names of the tenants. Everything was going fine with this until I was contacted via post, and then by phone, by Community Housing Services at Haringey Council.
They're insisting I print out a 15 page application form to turn the property into a HMO. I believe the charge is in the region of £208 per bedroom for a 5 year license. Threatening letters, very insistent that they're allowed access to the building to inspect it etc. Very persistent indeed.
The thing that irks me is that my property isn't a house or a flat that has been turned into a bunch of bedsits. It's 3 friends living in a flat together. I've read through the application form and it asks for details on each 'bedsit room' and also details about what shared kitchens/bathrooms there are etc.
Apparently the guidelines for HMO's stipulate that if you have 3 people from 2 or more families living under the same roof, its a HMO. I just don't feel this is fair. Am I wrong?
I also don't see what benefit I'm getting out of having to part with over £600 for essentially nothing. I can't think of a single way it benefits me.
Thoughts?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Geoff Amabilino on
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Harringay Ward and a few surrounding roads are covered by an 'additional HMO licensing scheme' that amends the national definitions of an HMO within the area, and implements a licensing scheme. It was introduced in 2012 after pressure from local residents for the Council to tackle the anti-social problems and poor housing conditions caused by a swathe of rented houses on the Ladder. The link is here.
I have to say that in your case it seems to be a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Perhaps go along with inspection and see whether it really does qualify if the three rooms don't have their own cooking facilities etc. (which is what 'bedsit' means to me).
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Permalink Reply by pamish on
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OK HMOs need controlling, but what about my right to define my own family? Like many people now I have a family of origin that is a small part of my life, and a closer family that I have created. Friends, lovers, children, various generations, some of whom I have lived together with. So is LBH telling me that they are not my family? The latter are likely to be the ones I name as next of kin. One person's HMO is another's shared house.
If your tenants say they are family, could LBH challenge that? I'm curious re how they define 'related'.
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Permalink Reply by Takaokagiejin on
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Don't see the problem here. There was much celebration when the restrictions on HMOs came in. You are running a business and the local authority have introduced regulations to ensure the business is operating safely. As a good landlord surely it is your duty to comply with this so that the authorities can get about their work of pursuing the slum landlords who are ramming too many people into tiny spaces and making their neighbours lives hell.
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I lived below a two bedroom rental property which was rented to a couple and a single. The single got a partner and a further couple were moved into the kitchen. Thus giving me 6 people living in a 2 bed flat above my head. The landlord didn't care and the local authority didn't care either. I didn't sleep for more than 3 hours at time during the 6 months these people were in residence, my garden was permanently full of the fag ends and other junk they chucked out of the window, my car was dented by the shopping trolleys they used as transport and left out front. This type of regulation is in place to prevent that type of abuse. The intention is not to help you but to police you, although I guess that by supporting this work you will ensure your neighbourhood gentrifies thereby increasing the value of your property.
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Permalink Reply by Mavic Starfish on
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In one of the rooms next door, (3 bedroom terrace), 1 person rented a studio flat. Now their are a family (husband, wife, 2 children) and the husbands brother living in one room. 5 people in a bedroom. Apparently the Landlord can't do anything about it for 2 months, but it's more likely that he doesn't care as long as he gets his rent. They are throwing the babies used nappies (bagged) out of their window in to the back garden - nice! I'm sure you are charging a reasonable rent, but from my experience of next door, people are playing the game of only one person signing the rental agreement, but moving more in afterwards in order to share the cost of rent prices being hiked. This particular Landlord is exploiting the rental market situation - in this case £620 - £750 pcm for one room. I know this because the turnover of renters is every 6 months. I doubt this is the only place it's happening.
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Permalink Reply by Vic Upson on
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Dear Paul unfortunately you are caught between a rock and a hard place, you have no alternative. As pointed out before you are renting out a flat to more people than it was designed for. I am a landlord and now have 3 HMO properties, one just being a 5 bedroom house let out to a group of sharers.
I agree it's annoying that you have to pay out huge fees for nothing as they should offer some form of incentive for being a good landlord. LBH are trying to protect the safety of the tenants and make sure they are living in good accommodation, so be prepared to have to make changes with respect of fire safety electrical certificates and gas safety etc. It sounds like you have a jobs worth on your case, they are not all the same. Vic
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As long as the money is ring-fenced, those fees together with all the others' - and it works out to about £2 a week to you - will pay for the policing of HMOs across the designated part of Haringey. That's the Newham system which seems to be working there - charge fees to make the licencing scheme self-financing, and more importantly self-policing. (As long as it is ring-fenced - not spent on trips to Cannes etc.) Just as I don't mind paying £1 a week to get a parking place here, it seems to me to be literally a small price to pay.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Benim on
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Hi there,
In principle I believe it may be a good scheme. However the same issue is before the courts for judicial review as far as Enfield Council is concerned. See July 23rd and July 30th issues of The Enfield Advertiser. As I understand it the Enfield Council has put this scheme on hold after this legal challenge. Something more is not clear; Haringey council charging £208 per person. However the legislation makes reference to households. So if you have 3 tenants in the property, two of those may be civil partners ie living together. Then you have two household and you should be charged two times £208 and not three. But this means you as the landlord have to enquire into your tenants private lives. We are in the same situation and as I say we would be quite happy if everything was made clear and the charge should be per property. ie say £500 (Enfield is charging £500 per property) per flat or house. As can be seen there are very blurred areas and the council should be more forthcoming in making the issues clear. All else being equal it could be a good scheme. Paying £500 for five years if it's going to result in better management of privately rented sector then so be it. But there is still issue needs to be made clearer by the council. In particular if Enfield council is putting the scheme on hols is Haringey doing the same or not!?
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Link here and here to the newspaper articles.
"In order to secure a licence, landlords have to ensure that sufficient health and safety measures are in place, as well as procedures to deal with antisocial behaviour and environmental crime. The council believes that drawing up a landlords’ register will also tackle poor standards of housing, overcrowding and missed rubbish collections." So what's his problem?
The plaintiff believes that most landlords don't need it. But resisting paying £2 a week (out of £100s in rent) per property, to bring all landlords up to the same standard ? i hope he gets wiped out at the pre-review stage, as I really want to see this scheme adopted nationwide. Seems obviously a winner and desperately needed. The small matter of catching tax evasion avoidance is part of the wins, too.
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As I said earlier, in principle it looks a good way to go. However it is not £2 pw per property with Haringey council.Haringey council demand is for £208 per person. The other point is it is not consistent with the legislation itself. Because the legislation states "per household" as against "per person" that the Haringey council states. The other issue is what is Haringey council doing whilst the issue is up for judicial review. Is Haringey ignoring the fact that there is judicial review and continuing with their demand or are they waiting for the outcome of the judicial review as Enfield council is.
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Permalink Reply by Nigel Tuppen on
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Sorry missed out time of meeting.
It is 6.45pm
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