Ken muses on trams for Haringey?

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Permalink Reply by William Booth on November 8, 2011 at 12:11

Oh I don't disagree with the improved VL (though weekend closures are still a major bugbear) and would love to see the PL similarly improved. What I don't agree with is the funding model - a flat tax on passengers which disproportionately affects the less well-off. It should be funded more through taxation and subsidy in my view.

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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on November 8, 2011 at 18:11

Oh Billy, you'd know. How much is the subsidy? Any measure you have is cool.

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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on November 9, 2011 at 20:05

Yes Billy and all trackwork, signals etc., are paid for and maintained out of that subsidy..

 

I wonder who pays for the trackwork (road surfaces) and signals (traffic lights) for cars...? Could it be the Government?

 

Boris has squandered money on his silly Borismaster scheme..  so in my eyes he's absolutely no better than Ken on Transport..

 

At least Ken managed to get bus usage and service back to pre-1958 levels (the year of the famous bus strike) - an amazing acheivement.. not to mention being brave enough to believe in and pay for the London Overground Scheme.

Permalink Reply by StephenBln on November 9, 2011 at 20:26

Billy, I don't know if you realise how much Londoners or even the British Public is being ripped off... 

As an example, you can buy a Deutsche Bahn 'Bahncard100'  second class for a one-off payment of 3,800€ (or 12 payments of 350€) which enables you to use the whole of the German Railway system for one year.. the price of an annual ticket  Milton Keynes - Euston?

http://www.bahn.com/i/view/GBR/en/prices/germany/bahncard.shtml

there are also Bahncard50s & Bahncard25 (one payment 39€ 2nd class) with which you receive discounts of 50 or 25% on any tickets purchased.

 

In Berlin, a ticket costs 2,30 valid two hours for a journey in one direction .. Say, Barnet to Croydon or Uxbridge to Romford.. a monthly costs 74€ for 10 months (2 free) and you can take a partner at the weekend and in the evenings as well as three children. A journey on public transport to the Airport from anywhere in the city costs 2,30 (Tegel) or 2,50 (Schönefeld)

 

In London, you don't even have 24h train services at the weekends and the Sunday service often starts a ridiculous hour.. not very 'World City' !

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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on November 9, 2011 at 22:37

Actually I'm not comparing apples or giraffes at all, but people and cities.. and I have to say I had to groan when I read the 'wartime' comparison.. You Brits really have to stop fighting WW2 sometime .. everyone else has moved on..

I understand what you are trying to say about age etc., But your argument just doesn't add up.. It might have made sense in 1960, but not in 2011. The war has been over for 66 years..!! Anything built immediately post-war has long been due for replacement.

Berlin's first U-Bahn lines date from 1902 .. so approx the same age as the central area sections of the Central, Bakerloo, Northen & Piccadilly Lines.. The difference is that there has been continual investment in Public Transport in the WHOLE of Germany and not just in it's Capital cities (Berlin & Bonn). This is no doubt due to the federal make-up of the country which means that taxes raised in one state are also partially used to benefit that state with only a percentage going to Central Government.

And yes, who would want to travel from Barnet to Croydon? Nobody, but perhaps Finchley to Tooting or Eltham .. it would all be the same fare: 2,30€ there - 2,30€ back. There and back for approx the cost of one 'Big Mac' - how far would a 'Big Mac Fare' take you in London? That's the real point I was trying to make.. and no, London Overground isn't revolutionary.. most of the 'new' connections existed in Victorian times but were cut back over time - firstly when the quicker and cheaper electric trams were introduced. The problem is, when the trams were withdrawn.. the railways services weren't re-introduced. Believe it or not, Victorian Londoners had better mobility possibilties through public transport than many Londoners have today.

Even so, Boris thought the publicity worth a go.. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12602558

 

Of course, Berlin has had a 'Ring ' line (in the shape of a dog's head) for over a hundred years, although much became disused after the building of the Berlin Wall . It has now all been rebuilt and re-opened.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Ringbahn

 

You really should try and look on the positive side of things.. a bit more investment into Public Transport rather than into other peoples wars - stop subsidising the Falkland Islands and instead subsidise London Buses. Maybe then London could start to get a 21st Century Transport system - something really worthwhile and something to be PROUD of..

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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on November 9, 2011 at 23:00

You keep avoiding my fares point ..

On the one hand you say many people avoiding paying the fare.. but have you ever asked yourself why.. ? What I'm saying is, cheaper fares encourage usage and also cut fare avoidance. The money spent on barriers and all the paraphernalia to stop 'fiddling' wouldn't be needed if fares were more reasonable.

 

You also complain about subsidies.. but you agree with the mayor spending millions on a new bus.. which if it were to be as successful as the original RM (which it won't) only 2750 would be built.. I can't see anywhere else - apart from some mad Americans in London Bridge, Arizona wanting to buy any.

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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on November 9, 2011 at 23:17

Yes, you are right about the paying of fares in Germany. The majority wouldn't consider not paying - but a few still don't - we have no gates or barriers at any of our stations and no ticket checks on trams (on buses in Berlin, but that is unusual).

 

BTW, Which carnage was that then? And  yes, I have seen the mock ups and I quite like the term 'mock-up'... something for fools! :o)

Look, the original RM was built primarily to be a bus - wasn't specific to London per se.. All British cities had open platform buses .. it later went on to become an icon, whatever that is.. even though it was severely criticised in the transport press in it's early years for not being modern enough.

 

This new bus was designed as an icon looking to be a bus.. the sequence the wrong way around -  I'm convinced (and most 'busmen' along with me) that it won't work ..

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Permalink Reply by michaelw on November 11, 2011 at 22:23

I remember a lot more traffic chaos on Church street when two 73 Routemasters met... not sure if they changed the parking at all, but there used to be some pretty impressive route master traffic jams!!

As for fare dodging on bendy buses, one solution is the revenue protection teams - they used to come on the 149 bendy quite frequently, always in a rapid manoeuvre that caught people by surprise!

There's also plenty of fare dodging on double deckers - e.g. people getting on through the back doors (I saw this happen yesterday on a 141 or 341, at Harringay Green Lanes stop).

Bendy buses are far, far better for buggies (and wheelchairs), and also carry more people than double deckers.

Because you need to increase the number of double deckers when the bendy buses are replaced, the risk to cyclists is much the same (and would be greater if there was full replacement of capacity) - and don't believe the Boris Johnson myth about Bendys killing cyclists- see:

http://www.boriswatch.co.uk/2009/01/05/bendy-bus-contract-costs-in-...

http://www.economist.com/blogs/blighty/2011/10/london-transport

 

 

Permalink Reply by StephenBln on December 30, 2011 at 14:55

@Billy Hole

Sorry to keep on about fares.. but have you read this aricle..?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/dec/30/uk-rail-season-tickets-europe

The price of a 2011 season ticket from Woking in Surrey to London, including tube travel in the capital, is £3,268.

Yet a similar 22-mile journey from Velletri to Rome costs Italian season ticket holders £336.17, statistics from the Campaign for Better Transport (CBT) show.

Analysis of similar journeys of around 21-24 miles in other European countries reveal that rail travellers on the continent are paying far less for their trains.

According to the CBT figures, which include the equivalent of multi-modal travel tickets on each city's underground systems, an annual season ticket for the 24-mile journey from Ballancourt-sur-Essonne to Paris costs £924.66.

The cost of a season ticket on the 21-mile Strausberg to Berlin route is £705.85, while the 22-mile Collado-Villalba to Madrid journey costs Spanish season ticket holders £653.74.

Do you see 10 times more investment in the railways in the UK too?

Or are passengers just being ripped off?

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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on December 30, 2011 at 16:06

You are the one comparing apples and oranges - not me .. and BTW, I didn't write the article.

A railway or transport system is surely a 'national asset' to be used by all. The price of housing in one particular area or salaries paid should have no effect on prices at all. I'm thinking of those in London who travel to Woking to work and also have to buy a season ticket.

This notion you have, seems to me to be taking the Thacherite dream to it's extreme. This dream which by the way, has now saddled the UK & USA with their current economic problems.

Permalink Reply by StephenBln on December 30, 2011 at 20:14

HNY for you too Mr Hole..   I seem to remember the tories applauding Gordon Brown for carrying out their policies.. so was nu?

I happen to think that mobility for everyone, regardless of their assets or salaries is a must.. and must it be affordable..

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